Re: Your Top 10 of Boring Royals

[Eric_Lowe]

I think of boring that does not mean that that persons life was uneventful. Alicky of Hesse was not artistically or musically gifted. Unlike her aunt Vicky, who could hold people spell bounded by her charm and vast knowledge from Italian art to Karl Marx (yes she had his book in her library). Her intense shyness and her narrow minded upbringing, coupled with new found religious fever did not endear her to anybody that was unfortunate to sit beside her during meals or family gatherings...

[Janet Ashton]

Alicky of Hesse was not artistically or musically gifted. Unlike her aunt Vicky, who could hold people spell bounded by her charm and vast knowledge from Italian art to Karl Marx (yes she had his book in her library). Her intense shyness and her narrow minded upbringing, coupled with new found religious fever did not endear her to anybody that was unfortunate to sit beside her during meals or family gatherings...

Eric, do you need me to point out that this post is factually incorrect? :-) I wouldn't have wanted to sit with either Vicky OR Alexandra (or most members of their family) at dinner, but it is not correct according to those who actually knew her to state that Alexandra lacked musical or artistic gifts and was narrowly ecudated; nor is it the case that everyone she met found her unappealing; you should check a few more contemporary memoirs and put "Missy's" down for a bit. Vicky certainly did not hold her the Prussian court "spell bound with her charm" either, whilst younger members of her family found her meddlesome and over-bearing.

Just restoring some balance to this discussion..... it should be possible to dislike a historical character without misrepresenting them factually. By the way, where did you read the statement that Vicky identified a love of power in Alexandra and commented on it to her daughter Sophie?

[Eric_Lowe]

Dear Janet, it is all in the book "The Empress Frederick Writes To Sophie" and edited by Arthur Gould Lee. You can find it in some university libraries.

There is no doubt that Vicky was talented (by her artistic paintings) and wide interest of subjects (even Karl Marx). This is well documented and you can look it up in books. This is not a brawl and the tone you used make it suspected someone from your family was insulted by my comments on Alicky.

Most diplomatic memoirs (those who had the pleasure of sitting near her) found her cold, proud and disagreeable. One told of her intense dislike of loud music and another talked to hein English, but recieved a cold rebuff from the Empress. I could not find one that found the Empress who was not irratated or cold in the books that I read. Maybe you can provide an example ? It is always easy to put down somebody's ideas that to built up your own case. I only find Alicky nice in her own private circle, which was small.

[CountessKate]

Vicky was always a little bit catty about Ella and Alix to Sophie - she made a point of mentioning, on two separate occasions, how much she admires firstly, Victoria and Maude of Wales, and then Ducky, more than the acknowledged Hessian beauties.  She also smirked a bit at Alix's change of mind about Nicky, with some implication that she knew she wouldn't have held out, but while this could be interpreted as suggesting that Alix was wishing for a great marriage, it could also be seen in the context of the change of religion not being so important - Sophie had received a torrent of criticism from her brother the Kaiser when she converted to the Greek orthodox church, and here the Kaiser was actively encouraging a marriage where the bride would have to convert to the Russian orthodox church; you could see this as Vicky having a quiet little triumph over Wilhelm's inconsistency.  

I would like to nominate Edward VII as someone who has an undeserved reputation for being interesting.  I think he would have been extremely tiresome to sit next to at dinner.  He was extremely high maintenance, and you had to do all the work - he was not going to entertain you.  If you weren't fun enough, he would start drumming his fingers on the table, a thoroughly annoying habit.

[Janet Ashton]

Dear Janet, it is all in the book "The Empress Frederick Writes To Sophie" and edited by Arthur Gould Lee. You can find it in some university libraries.

Eric, I am more than willing to be proven wrong if you can quote me a page number; but I don't find it in this book. Albeit I was using the index to skim it; I didn't comb every page.

There is no doubt that Vicky was talented (by her artistic paintings) and wide interest of subjects (even Karl Marx). This is well documented and you can look it up in books. This is not a brawl and the tone you used make it suspected someone from your family was insulted by my comments on Alicky.

Vicky's education is not in dispute. What I'm disputing is your assessment of two women who enjoyed a mixed reception from contemporaries, in which you seem to focus entirely on the virtues of one and entirely on the faults - real or false - of the other. Does the fact that Vicky read Marx mean that her niece's library was empty? Are you familiar with any lists of of Alexandra's reading matter? I apologise if you don't like my tone as you perceive it; in light of our several exchanges on this topic it was supposed to be jocular. But you have repaid it in kind with your  "advice" that I read a book or two!!!. :-) :-) (smilies!)
And, no, you have not insulted a member of my family; I hope there aren't any family members who I wouldn't want to have dinner with (as I said of Alexandra); you have rather piqued my historian's argumentative spirit and I hope I answer with facts not feelings so we'd best stick to these. Alexandra is a very easy target because she left no memoirs, and obviously I studied her in depth for years and stuff DOES come unbidden to mind still.

Most diplomatic memoirs (those who had the pleasure of sitting near her) found her cold, proud and disagreeable. One told of her intense dislike of loud music and another talked to hein English, but recieved a cold rebuff from the Empress. I could not find one that found the Empress who was not irratated or cold in the books that I read. Maybe you can provide an example ? It is always easy to put down somebody's ideas that to built up your own case. I only find Alicky nice in her own private circle, which was small.

Again, which diplomatic memoirs are you referring to here? It would easier to discuss if you were more precise. I catch a possible reference here to Paleologue; is this the one to whom she complained of loud music? He indicates that she was suffering from a headache at the time. This does not negate the references in several sets of memoirs to her musical abilities, does it - and these were what we were actually discussing. FWIW, sources who found Alexandra pleasant company when she became used to them include General Hanbury Williams, KR and others - including of course members of her household and several of her cousins such as "Thora" or Marie-Louise. We aren't just talking about diplomats. That some found her unpleasant is equally indisputable; but what I was disputing is your statement that NO-ONE liked her because she lacked any talents or education. You don't have to be an admirer of Alexandra to see that as untrue; and if you put these things down publicly people will dispute it.....That's the purpose of a discussion forum.

[Janet Ashton]

Vicky was always a little bit catty about Ella and Alix to Sophie - she made a point of mentioning, on two separate occasions, how much she admires firstly, Victoria and Maude of Wales, and then Ducky, more than the acknowledged Hessian beauties.  

I always wonder whether her attitude to her Hessian nieces was coloured by her relationship with her sister Alice? Vicky admitted early on in her letters to QV that she was rather jealous of "good" Alice as a child, whilst she herself was thought disobedient and clumsy by their mother (herself jealous of Albert's intense love for his first-born). I have to wonder whether she felt jealous too when she saw her sister's daughters so universally admired, while the only one of hers who anyone considered pretty was Charlotte, her problem child. That said, apart from her comments that she found their gawky cousins prettier or more interesting, I haven't found anything REALLY nasty in any of Vicky's comments about her nieces.

[Janet Ashton]

Alicky of Hesse was not artistically or musically gifted. Unlike her aunt Vicky, who could hold people spell bounded by her charm and vast knowledge from Italian art to Karl Marx (yes she had his book in her library). Her intense shyness and her narrow minded upbringing, coupled with new found religious fever did not endear her to anybody that was unfortunate to sit beside her during meals or family gatherings...

Eric, do you need me to point out that this post is factually incorrect? :-) I wouldn't have wanted to sit with either Vicky OR Alexandra (or most members of their family) at dinner, but it is not correct according to those who actually knew her to state that Alexandra lacked musical or artistic gifts and was narrowly ecudated; nor is it the case that everyone she met found her unappealing; you should check a few more contemporary memoirs and put "Missy's" down for a bit.

Yes, OK - I see why you took this as a "brawl" and I am sorry - the joke was on Missy's tone in regard to her cousin as much as on you.....:-)

[grandduchessella]

I'd have to agree with the assessment of Xenia Aalexandrovna.  Yes, she was under house arrest in the Crimea, and had to flee aboard a British warship, but she was really just along for the ride.  Besides being the mother to a large brood, she seems to be reknowned mainly for playing the victim and living off the largesse of the Windsors.

The Empress Augusta Viktoria (Dona) - what can one say about her, other than she was born, married Wilhelm, and died.  Oh, yes, I've read that she was always wearing hideous hats (picked out by her husband).

It's rather the difference between being a witness to exciting/interesting people & events (to which just about every royal would qualify) and being an interesting person yourself.

[Eric_Lowe]

Indeed. I do not say that nobody likes Alicky, But she wasn't too outgoing or social. Most certainly the shyness is a problem, but she did have an "I know it all attitude" and conservative relgious beliefs that did turn people off. It is a fact that she did not enjoy parties and avoid them as much a spossible. I put her in the boring section because she did not know how to put people at ease by leading small talk (Missy and Minny knew that well) and instead remained bored and quiet. Worse that her inability to socialise became a liability as people began nto label her as "proud", which may not been 100% wrong sometimes. This is only my opinion anyway.

[Janet Ashton]

Indeed. I do not say that nobody likes Alicky, But she wasn't too outgoing or social. Most certainly the shyness is a problem, but she did have an "I know it all attitude" and conservative relgious beliefs that did turn people off. It is a fact that she did not enjoy parties and avoid them as much a spossible. I put her in the boring section because she did not know how to put people at ease by leading small talk (Missy and Minny knew that well) and instead remained bored and quiet. Worse that her inability to socialise became a liability as people began nto label her as "proud", which may not been 100% wrong sometimes. This is only my opinion anyway.

Her inability to socialise was certainly a problem for her, and I've no doubt I'd have found her hard work, especially as she got older - but I don't think she was necessarily as conservative in her religious views as people often think - just her social ones! I think the main quibble I had with you was not whether she was boring but whether or not she had any interests! :-) She certainly had these, but may not have been good at sharing them. I suspect that the only member of her family I might have enjoyed having dinner with was maybe Ernie. Victoria I think would have held forth in a monologue; possibly Ella too, but with much more emotion; Irene would have been mousy (though she might have been better company out of doors) and Alix awkward.....
Just my instinct!

[Eric_Lowe]

No problem. I think Ella was the one with the charm. Missy turned into jelly just looking at her cousin/aunt. Alicky had beauty but little social skills and could appear arrogant at times. As Missy wrote in her book, her mother (Marie Coburg) said "there is nothing more boring than a princess that cannot say anything". She made her daughters pratice talking to chairs, and the result was that Missy, Ducky and Bee were known as socially accomplished woman. No wonder she found Alicky a bore and a prude ! Indeed, VMH was also very social, as she becamed obsessed with the telephone and would talk for hours. Her husband would sometimes lost his patience and told her to shut up.