Author Topic: Dukedoms of the United Kingdom  (Read 17566 times)

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Offline RoyalWatcher

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Dukedoms of the United Kingdom
« on: March 31, 2009, 05:05:57 PM »
After searching the board for a suitable location to post a question, I have created this new topic.

When individuals are given(created)/inherit a Dukedom in the United Kingdom, does it come with an income from that geographical territory? Or, is it simply symbolic title. 

I know that HM The Queen and the PoW receive an income from separate duchies, but does Prince Andrew also receive an income from York, etc.? 



 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 04:29:10 PM by grandduchessella »

Offline RoyalWatcher

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2009, 05:14:06 PM »
Would a moderator please correct the spelling of "Dukedoms" in the topic heading?!

Most embarrassed...red face.

Regards,

RoyalWatcher

alixaannencova

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2009, 05:31:37 PM »
With exception of Cornwall and Lancaster, other Dukedoms are designated as symbolic and are not linked to the geographical designations, except by tradition. In olden days, pre Stuart times, a Dukedom generally did come in the form of a Duchy so to speak, but this altered over time.

I do not believe that the present Duke of York has any entailed property in Yorkshire or York, nor the Dukes of Edinburgh, Gloucester and Kent in their titular cities or counties either! Their income is likewise unrelated to their geographical designations. I believe that their Dukedoms being long regarded as the preserve of the RF are recreated out of symbolic tradition. I often ponder if William and Harry will become Dukes upon marriage during their grandmother's lifetime. If so, I tend to think that as Cumberland and Teviotdale and Albany remain 'sensitive', that perhaps Clarence, Cambridge, Kendal or Sussex could be revived.

On a non Royal basis, a similar situation occurs in the Dukedoms of the realm. Originally the Dukes of Norfolk held vast tracts in Norfolk but after inheriting estates in Nottinghamshire, Sussex and Sheffield gradually divested themselves of their Norfolk holdings and made their home in Nottinghamshire before making Arundel in Sussex the main ducal seat. The Dukes of Bedford are one of the few ducal dynasties that still reside in their titular county. The Devonshire Dukedom has never had any significant links with that county! The Dukes of Northumberland like the Dukes of Bedford are seated in their titular county! In Scotland most Dukedoms do tend to still be linked to geographical areas!


It is actually quite fascinating that the present Duke of Somerset, who owns very few acres in that county but quite a lot in Wiltshire and Devonshire, is the only one who officially refers to his holdings as a Duchy. I assume that this is because the dukedom was created in exceptional circumstances when the Earl of Hertford as Lord Protector made himself Duke with the agreement of parliament as opposed to normal letters patent!
 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 05:37:03 PM by Toots »

Offline RoyalWatcher

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2009, 06:00:27 PM »
Thank you, Toots. You provided such insightful information.

Regarding a title for Prince William when he marries, I wonder what (if any) title he would receive. There are five historic royal dukedoms that are extinct: Windsor, Clarence, Sussex, Strathearn and Cambridge. I would think for obvious reasons Windsor is not even a consideration, but knowing William anything is possible. I, for one, would like to see the title of the Duke of Clarence come back again...HRH Prince William the Duke of Clarence has a nice ring to it.

I also wonder what dukedom Prince Harry will receive. On another website, someone was speculating of the available dukedoms available, perhaps he might be created the Duke of Strathearn at some time in the future, perhaps marriage. It would be a nice tie in with the the former holder of that title, Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught and Strathearn. Like Harry, he was a military man and would provide a meaningful link.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 06:02:19 PM by RoyalWatcher »

alixaannencova

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2009, 07:01:12 PM »
I find it most interesting to ponder the future of the Dukedom of Edinburgh. I believe that the title will only merge with the crown upon the accession of the Prince of Wales, who in the meantime, in due course will succeed his father as 2nd Duke of Edinburgh. Only then will the Dukedom be available to recreate for a fourth time (excluding the Gloucester and Edinburgh Dukedom!)

I often wonder whether it would not be simpler for Prince Philip to merely surrender the present Dukedom back to the Queen and be recreated Duke of Edinburgh of the fourth creation with special but explicit remainder to his third son, Edward Wessex and his heirs male only. This would then simplify matters and would allow the Dukedom to continue numerically, as in Edward would become 2nd Duke and James Severn 3rd Duke, rather than have to wait until Charles succeeds as 2nd Duke of the present creation and then issues fresh letters patent recreating the Dukedom after his accession to the throne making Edward 1st Duke of Edinburgh of the fourth creation!



Offline TampaBay

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2009, 09:21:21 AM »
Marlene is the expert on the dukedom of Edingburgh.

She has posted many times about this topic on other threads.

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CHRISinUSA

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2009, 09:27:26 AM »
I often ponder if William and Harry will become Dukes upon marriage during their grandmother's lifetime. If so, I tend to think that as Cumberland and Teviotdale and Albany remain 'sensitive', that perhaps Clarence, Cambridge, Kendal or Sussex could be revived.

The Dukedom of Cumberland and Teviotdale, and the Dukedom of Albany are not extinct, but are rather suspended.  According to the Titles Deprivation Act, the lineal male heirs to these two peerages have the right to petition for restoration of their peerages.  Thus, they are legally (at present, anyway) unavailable for future creation.

The others you mention are available:

The Dukedom of Clarence & Avondale fell extinct on the death of Prince Albert Victor of Wales in 1892.

The Dukedom of Cambridge fell extinct in 1904 on the death of Prince George William Frederick Charles, 2nd Duke of Cambridge.  (The title was created as a Marquessate in 1917 for Prince Adolphus Charles, Duke of Teck, brother of Queen Mary.  The Marquessate fell exinct in 1981 on the death of his son George, the 2nd Marquessate).

The Dukedom of Kendall (a life peerage created for George I's mistress Ehrengard Melusine von der Schulenburg, fell exinct on her death in 1743).

The Dukedom of Sussex fell extinct in 1843 upon the death of Prince Augustus Frederick.

Of these, Clarence is the oldest title created (first created in 1362), followed by Cambridge (1664), Kendall (1719) then Sussex (1801).  

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Dukedoms of the United Kingdom
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2009, 01:30:03 PM »
Hi,

I think I'd go with Cambridge as a nice, safe Dukedom...

Albany and Sussex would be my second choices...

Clarence has a rather dubious connotation - George drowned in a barrel of Malmsey wine;  William IV known as 'Silly Billy';  and Albert Victor having a salacious reputation, however not varified!!!

Cumberland is associated with two dreadful men - a butcher and a libertine...

Kendal would not due as it's associated with a "whore"...

Larry

alixaannencova

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2009, 06:44:37 PM »
I agree with you Larry about George I's  mistress being Duchess of Kendal. This no doubt did subsequently tarnish the strawberry leaves of that particular title's coronet, t'is a pity, as James II's son Charles (1666 - 1667) was designated Duke of Kendal, though the Letters Patent were not passed beneath the Great seal before his death.

I know Wiki is hardly the most reliable of sources at the best of times, but it says that Prince Leopold was going to be made Duke of Kendal after his marriage to Princess Charlotte. It would have seemed to have made sense at the time, as the Dukedoms of York & Albany, Clarence & St Andrews, Kent & Strathearn, Cumberland & Teviotdale, Sussex, Cambridge, Gloucester & Edinburgh were all extant at the time! I often wonder about the possible Dukedoms Prince Octavius and the afflicted Prince Alfred may have been given had they survived to maturity too? I think the 'traditional' Royal Dukedoms had all been allocated by 1801, and perhaps new designations would have had to have been found. Octavius may have perhaps been given 'Kendal' in time, because of its links to Charles Stuart and in a bid to rehabilitate the title from its links to George I's concubine!



« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 06:48:31 PM by Toots »

Alexander1917

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2009, 07:50:47 AM »
I find it most interesting to ponder the future of the Dukedom of Edinburgh. I believe that the title will only merge with the crown upon the accession of the Prince of Wales, who in the meantime, in due course will succeed his father as 2nd Duke of Edinburgh. Only then will the Dukedom be available to recreate for a fourth time (excluding the Gloucester and Edinburgh Dukedom!)

I often wonder whether it would not be simpler for Prince Philip to merely surrender the present Dukedom back to the Queen and be recreated Duke of Edinburgh of the fourth creation with special but explicit remainder to his third son, Edward Wessex and his heirs male only. This would then simplify matters and would allow the Dukedom to continue numerically, as in Edward would become 2nd Duke and James Severn 3rd Duke, rather than have to wait until Charles succeeds as 2nd Duke of the present creation and then issues fresh letters patent recreating the Dukedom after his accession to the throne making Edward 1st Duke of Edinburgh of the fourth creation!




The titel Duke of Edingburgh will go after the death of the present to Prince Edward.....

alixaannencova

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 03:00:01 PM »
No it will not. As when the title was created for Philip in 1947 it appears that it was issued with a standard remainder which means the present creation will pass to Charles in time. In 1999 when Edward married and the issue of a Dukedom was discussed, it was announced that when the Dukedom finally reverts to the crown, it will be re-created for Edward. If the Dukedom was created for life only for Philip, then my point is without point, as the Dukedom will revert to the Crown as soon as Philip dies, but this has never been clarified.

If, the standard remainder stands for example, Charles outlives his father but dies during his mother's lifetime the present creation of the Dukedom of Edinburgh will endure into a third generation, passing to William as senior heir male with any male issue he has and Harry and his male issue as remainder. Only when the incumbent holder of the Dukedom inherits the throne will the Dukedom revert to the crown and become eligible for recreation.

This is why I thought it would be simpler for Philip to surrender the present Dukedom and receive a new creation with special remainder to Edward and his heirs male now! Rather than wait for Charles to become King etc, or even William possibly!


 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 03:07:02 PM by Toots »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2009, 06:00:05 PM »
I have a feeling that William and Harry won't be given titles until their father becomes king (whereupon William will, of course, be Prince of Wales, and a suitable dukedom will be found for Harry). For now, I think that their identity as 'Prince William' and 'Prince Harry' is too firmly entrenched in the public mind (via the media) to consider calling them something else. Although it was usually traditional to grant princes a dukedom upon their marriage, I just don't think it'll happen with them (during Elizabeth II's reign anyway) - their wives will be 'Princess William/Henry of Wales', but will no doubt be referred to as 'Princess N' by the media.
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Offline mcdnab

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2009, 06:16:00 PM »
I suspect you are right about that. Firstly in the 20th and 21st Century the Royal Family have veered towards the more traditional Dukedoms (Gloucester Kent York etc) and most of those are still in existance apart from the tragic aberration that is the earldom of wessex - that Clarence must be regarded as unlucky despite being one of the oldest and the fact that York the traditional title of the second son (apart from under Victoria) is going to fall vacant at some point in the next twenty years or so. I do sometimes wonder that if William ever does marry before the death of the Queen then to avoid the Princess William issue would if not be more sensible for him to use one of his father's junior titles as a courtesy title like to eldest sons of any other British Peer - HRH The Earl and Countess of Chester anyone?

Alexander1917

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2009, 03:35:29 PM »
May we should say that Edward will be A Duke of Edingburgh......is this now right????

alixaannencova

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Re: Dukedomes of the United Kingdom
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2009, 03:40:10 PM »
Sorry Alexander1917 I hope you do not think I was being sharp with you! I did not mean to be, as it is such an odd situation as far as I can tell with the Dukedom of Edinburgh!
Now that James Severn is around, I would have thought it even more pertinent for Prince Philip and the Queen to come to some more simple solution. I think surrendering the present creation in lieu of a new one would certainly makes things simpler!