Author Topic: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.  (Read 76370 times)

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2009, 08:26:54 PM »
Yes Liam, the longevity of the 2nd and 3rd Dukes is noteworthy! I do wonder that the 4th Duke may have enjoyed such a long life, had it not been literally 'cut' short!! The 9th Duke reached his ninety first year too!

With regards to the later Dukes of Norfolk.....I am so tempted to rush off and 'wrap up' so to speak, but I feel a sense of obligation to do this whole thing properly really. But now, I am beginning to wonder at the brevity of the task in hand, and whether more members of the forum will eventually join in, as I would loathe this to become primarily 'Toots' waffle' thread?!?! It is very kind of you and Larry to drop in like you do! I hope that no one on high decides to merge this into the Tudor thread, because soon I shall move into the Stuart era and eventually reach beyond and up to the present! Saying this, I am rather surprised that no other Tudor thread patrons have dropped in or wish to contribute here! Maybe they realize that I do not envisage remaining in this era for long!

On the subject of longevity. The Graftons are 'the' ducal dynasty noted for a marked consistency of generational longevity. Plenty of octogenarians amongst their ranks!

The 4th Duke of Norfolk (1538 this year is based on the works of John Martin Robinson and Neville Williams, although I note other sources state the year to have been 1536 - 1572)

Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk, Earl of Surrey, Baron Mowbray and Segrave was the eldest son of Henry, Earl of Surrey and his wife of Lady Frances de Vere. Born at Kenninghall Palace, which had come to the Howards as one of the various seats of the Mowbrays, the future 4th Duke was according to his august paternal grandfather, born a month early but he proved a lusty infant nonetheless. As heir assumptive to the Dukedom and vast Howard patrimony, the infant by courtesy from birth, Lord Mowbray and Segrave, spent his early childhood surrounded by the trappings of splendour, akin to those of the Royal Court. His grandfather, riding on a tide of good fortune and favour, was in receipt of an annual income of about 3,000 pounds a year from his vast landholdings, and there were various other emoluments, pensions and salaries pouring into the ducal coffers from numerous court offices, which also contributed to the maintenance of the ducal family and its various households.

Kenninghall, unlike Framlingham Castle the ancient Bigod seat, was primarily a home, rather than a fortress stronghold first, residence and home second. The Palace had been extended over the previous decades, in order to allow various branches of the Howard progeny to  maintain their own semi independent establishments within its numerous, comfortably appointed ranges. There were in addition various other family seats, at Norwich for example, where Thomas' grand father built a splendid new residence that became known, rather unimaginatively as the 'Duke's Palace,' and Mount Surrey and Surrey Court in the same city, built for his father the ill fated Earl of Surrey. Other family homes included castles at Acre, Rising and the aforementioned Framlingham, as well as the homes of the infant's step great grandmother, Agnes Duchess, Norfolk House opposite Lambeth Palace in London and Chesworth House near Horsham in West Sussex. In all, the future 4th Duke of Norfolk would one day possess more 'fifty six manors, thirty-seven avowsons and"many other estates" making him the richest subject in the realm with an income that is said to have reached at least 4,500 pounds per annum.

At the time of his first marriage in 1556, the bride, the heiress of the 19th  Earl of Arundel, had the expectation of inheriting personal estates worth a further 666 pounds pa., which would eventually pass to her Howard descendants. At this time, Norfolk's landholdings encompassed some six hundred square miles of land. This vast portfolio of holdings, equalled only in extent and privilege by the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster and the Palatinate of Durham, made up the unique 'Liberty of the Dukes of Norfolk' as established by Edward IV for the last of the Mowbray Dukes, and subsequently inherited by the Howard Dukes. With extraordinary rights and privileges that extended beyond the borders of Norfolk, the Liberty encompasses properties in Suffolk, Essex, Surrey and Sussex. In addition the Duke also possessed estates in the west, in Devon, Shropshire, Ireland and a coalfield in south Wales. (Hopefully, this will give readers here, an idea of the sheer magnitude of the Norfolk patrimony and the power that the incumbent Duke could wield.)  

It is the 4th Duke, who in childhood was entrusted to the care of one John Foxe, a cleric. This man was responsible for instilling into his young charge the Protestant faith. A matter that no doubt troubled his reactionary old grandfather, once he himself was released from the Tower and restored to his Dukedom. Thereafter, the old Duke tried to put right such matters as his heir's religious indoctrination, but the impressions instilled in the future 4th Duke during his childhood remained and he is today regarded as the first of his House to have been an Anglican. This is ironic when one sees his third marriage to the stalwart Catholic Lady Dacre of Gilsland and later still the designs to marry him to Mary, Queen of Scots.

Accusations of his recusancy which coloured his ultimate downfall, were purported to have been encouraged by his rivals, Leicester and Burghley, though Norfolk's biographer, Neville Williams, maintains that Norfolk's faith was primarily a personal matter that rarely encroached into his public life or matters of policy.

The 4th Duke of Norfolk made three marriages highly important and dynastically profitable marriages. His first bride, Lady Mary Fitzalan (1540 - 1557) daughter of the 19th Earl of Arundel died two months after giving birth to a son Phillip, Earl of Surrey, the heir to the Dukedom. The widowed 4th Duke married secondly in 1558 the exquisitely beautiful, Margaret, widowed Lady Dudley (1540 - 1564), daughter and heiress of Henry, 1st and last Baron Audley of Walden and maternal first cousin of Lady Jane Grey. Margaret Duchess died aged just twenty four leaving her devastated husband with two more sons, Thomas and William. In 1566/67 the Duke entered matrimony for the third time when he married Elizabeth (c. 1540 - 1567), widow of the 3rd Baron Dacre of Gilsland. It would be his plans to take a fourth wife that would lead to Norfolk's ultimate fall from grace, his permanent estrangement from his cousin the Queen and the beginning of his journey toward the scaffold and the block!

To be continued.....


« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 08:41:00 PM by Toots »


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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2009, 10:58:22 PM »
The 4th Duke of Norfolk part II:-

Norfolk inherited several of his father's principal aesthetic interests. As a patron of the arts, the 4th Duke collected together a fine library. He embellished Kennighall, with collections of tapestries and paintings and enlarged and beautified the ducal Palace at Norwich. At this time Norwich was the second city of the realm after London, and was flourishing as the wool capital of the country. The city was also the capital of England's most prosperous county! At the palace in Norwich, the Duke created a great quadrangle similar to that at Trinity College, Cambridge. A new great hall and some fifteen other principal chambers were laid out and lavishly decorated. There was a covered bowling alley and a tennis court. Apparently according to Robinson, Norfolk's 'estate in England was worth little less than the whole realm of Scotland, in the ill state to which the wars reduced it; and that when he was on his own tennis court at Norwich, he thought himself as great as a King.'

In 1564 the Duke acquired the Charterhouse in London for 2,000 pounds, renamed it Howard House, and set about transforming it into another suitable seat conveniently close to the Court and the seat of government. Unlike his father, who had never had the oppotunity to use the ducal resources to realize his own visions, the 4th Duke was able to bankroll his lavish lifestyle, and even found his income, enormous though it was, often stretched to the point where the he had to resort to borrowing funds in order to keep the whole show on the road, so to speak. Such financial troubles were hardly unusual for courtiers during the reign of Elizabeth I, but what is remarkable to note, even with the amount of money that the ducal holdings generated, just how much Norfolk must have had to have parted with, in order to find himself in need of the services of money lenders!

Based on RPI resources the 4th Duke's landed income (excluding emoluments, salaries etc of at least another 1,7000 pounds) stood at 2,815 pounds in 1559 which equates to an RPI of 641,141.55 pounds or, based on average earnings 10,164,021.03 pounds as of 2007!

As a comparison to some of his fellow peers I shall provide a little more data about just how wealthy Norfolk was where land generated income  was concerned and comparable!

The Duke of Norfolk:- 2,815 pounds - Although according to records of assessments of the taxable income of the peerage it was incorrectly calculated to be 1,200 pounds in 1559
The Earl of Derby - 2,000 pounds
The Earl of Oxford - 1,600 pounds
The Earl of Winchester - 1,200 pounds
The Earl of Rutland - 1,200 pounds
The Earl of Huntingdon - 1,000 pounds
The Earl of Hertford - 1,000 pounds (Son and senior male heir of the 1st Duke of Somerset)
The Earl of Shrewsbury - 1,000 pounds
The Earl of Pembroke - 1,000 pounds
The Earl of Worcester - 800 - 1,000 pounds approximately (Based of the the acquisition of Tintern and existing Somerset family holdings!)
The Earl of Arundel - 666 pounds (Norfolk's first father in law)
Lord Audley of Walden - 333 pounds (Norfolk's second father in law)
Lord Howard of Effingham - 333 pounds (Norfolk's half great uncle) 

Perhaps this will help others to visualize just what big fish Norfolk was! I am trying to establish the value in terms of landed estates of other peers of the time including Westmoreland, Northumberland, Cumberland, Lincoln (to be) and Dacre of Gilsland. I would also love to know about the incomes of the Worcesters for certain and the Montagus of Boughton during this period!
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 11:32:32 PM by Toots »


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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2009, 07:19:24 AM »
Oooops....apologies....I stated earlier that when Somerset made himself Duke, he became premier and only Duke of the realm in 1547 after the 3rd Duke of Norfolk was attainted. This was incorrect as I had forgotten about Charles Brandon's two sons. Only after the death of the 3rd and last Duke of Suffolk within an hour of that of his elder brother in July 1551, did Somerset briefly become Premier and sole Duke of the realm until the joint elevations of John Dudley, Earl of Warwick to the Dukedom of Northumberland and Henry Grey, 3rd Marquess of Dorset, father of Lady Jane Grey, to the Dukedom of Suffolk three months later.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 07:37:43 AM by Toots »

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2009, 04:09:41 PM »
Hi Alix,

Wow, you've certainly been typing your little fingers off!!!
I've just read through your last 4 posts and I do believe you should do a book on this subject.  On all the Dukes & Duchesses;  when you're finished here, of course!!
A nice big coffee table book with miriads of pictures....

A book such as this would be historically significant, I think...

And then, you'd be rich and I could come and visit you and you could feed me tea and scones - - just a thought!!!



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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2009, 05:59:12 PM »
Larry my dear, my door would always be open! My thing about Dukes is probably  motivated by their rarity! You are so kind in your compliments and I feel really humbled by your kind words! IMHO they are comparably to Royalty not only because they are almost unique, but because of the fascinating lives they enjoyed! It is a combination of unbelievable wealth, glamour, intrigue, ambitions and in some cases eccentricity, madness, financial ruin and outright criminality! I can not get enough of these personalities! I would probably be deemed a ducal junkie in some quarters!

As a wee break from the Norfolks, here is some data about ducal stats!

In 1660 when Charles II was invited back to England to take his throne, there were only four extant non royal Dukedoms of the realms. George Villiers, 2nd Duke of Buckingham held  one of the two English titles, whilst the other, that of Richmond was held by the King's distant kinsman, Esme Stewart, who was also 5th Duke of Lennox in the Scots peerage. The other extant Dukedom, also in the Scots peerage, was held by Anne Hamilton, 3rd Duchess of Hamilton. Between the restoration of 1660 and the death of Queen Anne in 1714 I have calculated that some forty strawberry leafed coronets were distributed from the fount of all honours! This figure includes the reversal of attainders against the Norfolk and Somerset Dukedoms which subsequently bore their original precedence and are subsequently the only two pre restoration non royal Dukedoms in the English peerage to remain extant. These statistics also includes the life peerages of the Dukedom of Portsmouth and the special Dukedom of Hamilton bestowed upon the husband of the 3rd Duchess of Hamilton for his lifetime. 

  Of all the hereditary Dukedoms created and restored during this particular period when the ducal ranks were so lavishly replenished, only eighteen remain extant into the twenty first century. It is also pertinent to note that three individuals actually carry two Dukedoms each today, thus reducing the number of actual persons holding Dukedoms created during the period 1660 - 1714 to just sixteen. Just to complicate matters, some of you sharp bods out there, who may read this, will probably think I have made a mistake in my sums, but it makes sense when one knows that one of the Dukedoms created between 1660 and 1714, that of Brandon (GB) created in 1711, is actually united with the Dukedom of Hamilton (S) created in 1643.

The reign of George I saw a remarkable flurry of ducal creations. Between July 1715 and  June 1720, the King created twelve Dukedoms. Two of which were for life only for his mistress, and one other was given the incumbent Duke of Argyll. The remaining nine creations were basically promotional in nature. Of the ten Hereditary Dukedoms created during this five year period, only one has perpetuated in the present century, which is a rather interesting example of the randomness of statistics, when compared to the survival rate of Dukedoms from the previous period represented above.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 06:13:58 PM by Toots »


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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2009, 10:14:24 PM »
  Here is another little piece of data that illustrates the landed incomes of all the extant Dukes of the five realms as of 1879. I have included the future Duke of of Fife because of his elevation a decade later! It may be of interest to some to note the incomes the sovereign and heir to the throne received from their Duchies. All second figures are pounds sterling in 'gross' income received per annum as of 1879! I have not included the Royal Dukes of Cambridge, Edinburgh or Connaught as their primary income did not come from landed interests but instead came in the form of 24,000 pounds per annum for George Duke and Cambridge and 25,000 pounds pa. each for Alfred E. and Arthur C. all of which were granted to them by Parliament as annuities!


Abercorn - 79,662 acres  - 53,400 pounds pa.
Argyll -     175,114 acres  - 50,842 pounds pa.
Atholl -     201,640 acres  - 42,030 pounds pa.
Beaufort -  51,085 acres  - 56,226 pounds pa.
Bedford -  86,335 acres = 141,793 pounds pa. (Excludes income from the Bloomsbury and Covent Garden estates in London)
Buccleuch and Queensberry - 460,108 acres - 217,163 pounds pa. (Excludes income generated from minerals etc of 4,091 pounds and further income from Granton Harbour valued at 10,601 pounds per annum.)
Buckingham and Chandos - 10,482 acres -  18,080 pounds pa.
Cleveland - 104,194  acres - 97,398 pounds pa.
Cornwall - 96,781 Pounds pa. (The Prince of Wales as Duke received a further 40,000 pounds pa. in the form of a parliamentary annuity)
Devonshire - 198,572 acres - 181,000 pounds pa.
Fife - 249,220 acres -  72,653 pounds pa. (An Earl at the time, but still relevant in light of his future elevation!)
Grafton - 25,773 acres -  39,284 pounds pa.
Hamilton and Brandon - 157,386 acres -  73,636 pounds pa. (Excludes mineral rent of 67,000 pounds per annum.)
Leeds - 24,237 acres -  33,381 pounds pa.
Lancaster - 76,186 pounds pa. (Queen Victoria as Duke of Lancaster received a further 385,000 pounds pa. from the treasury for the maintenance of her household etc. Out of this, the Queen had 60,000 pounds deposited into her privy purse for her personal use.)
Leinster - 73,100 acres - 55,877 pounds pa.
Manchester - 27,312 acres - 40,360 pounds pa.
Marlborough - 23,511 acres - 36,557 pounds pa.
Montrose -  103,447 acres -  24,872 pounds pa.
Newcastle - 35,547 acres -  74,547 pounds pa.
Norfolk - 49,866 acres - 75,596 pounds pa. (Excludes mineral income and urban income. In several sources the 15th Duke of Norfolk was purportedly in receipt of a total income of about 200,000 pounds per annum.)
Northumberland - 192,080 acres - 185,806 pounds pa. (Believed to exclude some portion of mineral income that is presently unverified.)
Portland - 183,199 acres -  88,350 pounds pa. (Excludes 19,571 pounds from mines)
Richmond, Gordon and Lennox - 286,411 acres -  79,683 pounds pa.
Roxburghe - 60,418 acres -  50,917 pounds pa.
Rutland - 70,137 acres  - 97,486 pounds pa.
St Albans - 8,998 acres -  10,955 pounds pa. (Excludes mineral royalties of approximately of 8,750 pounds per annum)
Somerset - 25,387 acres  37,577 pounds pa.
Sutherland - 1,358,545 acres -  141,667 pounds pa.
Wellington - 19,116 acres -  22,162 pounds pa. (Excludes entailed estates in Belgium and Spain)
Westminster - 19, 749 acres - 38,994 pounds pa. (Excludes income from all land holdings within the city of London.)

A pound from 1879 is comparable to the RPI of 72.82 pounds as of 2007 or comparable to the average earnings value of 518.27 pounds as of 2007!

If one wants to take in to consideration the 1st Duke of Westminster's entire income from all his properties including his London holdings, his annual income in 1879 amounted to about 290,000 pounds. His Grace of Bedford's income in 1879 including his London rents stood at about 225,000 pounds , putting him into third place behind Westminster and Buccleuch in terms of ducal earnings!
At the bottom end of this league of ducal earners is the 9th Duke of St Albans, whose acreage is more comparable to a member of the gentry rather than the very highest echelons of the Victorian aristocracy. Nevertheless with the discovery of a highly lucrative seam of coal beneath the picturesque fields of his modest Nottinghamshire estate, the 9th Duke of St Albans' income was greatly enhanced in the form of extra income generated from mineral rights. This twist of geological good fortune thus nudged St Albans' earnings above those of his nearest peer, the 3rd Duke of Buckingham and Chandos, who inherited a patrimony of the verge of complete bankruptcy in 1861. This admirable Duke, the only one  of his line worthy of such a sobriquet, spent his tenure actually 'working' tirelessly to clear the debts burdening the remnants of the once vast Nugent- Brydges - Grenville patrimony and  maintain enough of his landed interests with which to justify the dignity of his exulted status.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 10:41:25 PM by Toots »


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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2009, 11:59:31 PM »
As to the costs  of living and the maintenance of dukes and their families. One can generally forget what Lloyd George said about Dreadnoughts and Dukes as I give a brief outline of howthe average Duke generally spent his lucre during the later half of Queen Victoria's reign based on various sources.

During this period a large home in country comparable to many of those that shelter and a place in the country for Dukes of the realm, such as Chatsworth, Arundel, Blenheim and the like,  would have cost an average of 12,000 to 14,000 pounds per annum to maintain, staff, heat and whatnot without scrimping! A pad in town kept in a permanent state of readiness should their Graces decide to pop into town at any time, could easily cost a similar amount to keep open year round! That would account for some 26,000 to 28,000 pounds a year. Inevitably when I share these figures, I hope others will realise that such costs included all household bills and upkeep akin to that of running of a home today...all one has to do is imagine everything on a huge scale. Servants accounted on average for upwards of thirty persons resident in a large house, but as in the case of the Dukes fine example of many other ducal 'pads' that were once dotted about throughout Belgravia, Mayfair, Westminster and Bloomsbury. Some such as Montagu House, Stafford House (once memorable described by a Queen Victoria, which though a quip demonstrates just how impressive some of those ducal lairs were, as the sovereign said to her hostess the Duchess of Sutherland 'I have come from my house (Buckingham Palace) to your Palace'!!!!   and Northumberland House were very impressive indeed and even put Marlborough House in the shade! If you need a U.S comparison just think of an hybrid of Marble House and 660 Fifth Avenue, Manhattan and you will get an idea of what a ducal home in London such as Norfolk House or Devonshire House would have been like.

Needless to say, there were quite a few Dukes of 1879 who simply did not have the cash resources to maintain two lavish abodes, and consequently maintained their country places in a fitting style and kept up a degree of dignity as funds allowed in their more modest London establishments. The Dukes of Leeds and St Albans had homes in Grosvenor Crescent and the Manchesters lived in Great Stanhope Street for a time, all in fine houses with suitable addresses for such august residents but nonetheless hardly comparable to those London homes of some of their more wealthy equals. The 3rd Duke of Buckingham and Chandos, after decades of retrenchment in a bid to save his shattered inheritance from complete ignobility, eventually managed to reoccupy Chandos House, the splendid mansion erected by his ancestor the 1st Duke of Chandos, but Buckingham was unusual, and it is rather sad that after all his valiant and ultimately successful efforts to save his legendary seat at Stowe in his titular county and Chandos House on Pall Mall in London, he could not pass them on to a son and successor, as he was to be the last of his line. 

Some kept yachts too. Dukes of Sutherland, Bedford, Leeds, St Albans and Westminster were amongst the keenest sailors of their day.

Oh dear I have wandered off on a tangent...I really ought to get back to the Norfolks...sorry!

« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 12:21:16 AM by Toots »


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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2009, 03:18:46 PM »
Servants accounted on average for upwards of thirty persons resident in a large house, but as in the case of the Dukes of Northumberland, some houses required more than fifty servants and all these people under one roof as well as the ducal family required feeding three times a day! There were fine examples of many other ducal 'pads' were once dotted about throughout Belgravia, Mayfair, Westminster and Bloomsbury. Some such as Montagu House, Stafford House (once memorable described by a Queen Victoria, which though a quip demonstrates just how impressive some of those ducal lairs were, as the sovereign said to her hostess the Duchess of Sutherland) 'I have come from my house (Buckingham Palace) to your Palace', and Northumberland House which was sold by compulsory order in 1875 for 500,000 pounds to the Board of Works, were very impressive indeed and even put Marlborough House in the shade! If you need a U.S comparison just think of an hybrid of Marble House and 660 Fifth Avenue, Manhattan and you will get an idea of what a ducal home in London such as Norfolk House or Devonshire House would have been like.

I noticed that I had made a terrible hash of the above paragraph in my last post and had to tidy it up! I hope it makes sense now!

Right I shall now return to the Dukes of Norfolk!


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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2009, 05:59:21 PM »
Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk (1538 - 1572) Part III

Through his third marriage to the widowed Lady Dacre of Gilsland, Norfolk became step father and ultimately guardian of the orphaned Dacre children. After the accidental death of little George, 4th Baron Dacre of Gilsland when a vaulting horse crushed him, the considerable Dacre patrimony passed to his sisters as his co heirs.

With shrewd regard to the future of his descendants, Norfolk took full advantage of the death of his stepson and arranged marriages between his three sons from his first and second marriages, to his third wife's children. Anne Dacre married Philip, Earl of Surrey, her sister Mary married Lord Thomas Howard, elder of the boys born to Norfolk and his second wife, and Lord William Howard, Thomas's full blood brother married Elizabeth, youngest of the Dacre girls. Even though Mary died childless, her portion of the Dacre inheritance passed neatly to her surviving sisters, thus ensuring the whole of the Dacre inheritance remained in the hands of the Howards and became the basis upon which a northern interest was established for the family.

In time, the descendants of Philip, Earl of Surrey and Anne Dacre would make Greystoke Castle in Cumberland a collateral branch seat, later still it was one of several ducal seats and then once again a collateral branch stronghold. Lord Thomas Howard, widower of the second Dacre daughter may have lost out in securing some portion of the Dacre inheritance which all together amounted to some 130,000 acres, but this was hardly detrimental to his prospects, as he had inherited the fine Audley estates from his mother, and through his second marriage secured another estate, Charlton in Wiltshire for his family. Lord Thomas became Baron Howard de Walden by writ of summons in 1597 and in 1603 Earl of Suffolk by letters patent. Whilst his eldest son and successor inherited these titles and the Audley estates, thus creating a collateral titled branch of the ducal family, Lord Suffolk's younger son, yet another Thomas Howard would eventually inherit the Wiltshire estates of his mother and founded another titled collateral branch of the family when he was created Earl of Berkshire.

The 4th Duke of Norfolk's youngest survivng son Lord William and his wife, Elizabeth Dacre, thus received the lion's share of the Dacre estates by mutual family negotiation and agreement. This would create a third branch descended from the 4th Duke on the Howard tree that would be well provided for with considerable lands across the north, thus greatly increasing the Howards' collective dynastic power and influence right across the English realm. Lord William's descendants include the Earls of Carlisle who built Castle Howard in Yorkshire, the 'Brideshead' of the Television and Cinematic versions of Evelyn Waugh's novel. Castle Howard became alienated from the Earldom in the last century, and now belongs to the grandsons of a younger son of the 9th Earl. The present 13th Earl of Carlisle's younger brother now owns and lives at Naworth Castle in Cumberland, and another branch of the Howard Family owned Corby Castle which is also in Cumbria until 1994!

Goodness, I hope this makes sense! I just wanted to illustrate just how significant the 4th Duke's marriages were. I have not even dwelt on the inheritance the descendants of his first marriage, would one day enjoy as senior heirs of the 19th Earl of Arundel! I shall endeavour to explain the near 'mythical' mantle that burnished the Arundel Earldom and Fitzalan name in my installment about Philip, Earl of Surrey, as it is intrinsic to the history of following Dukes of Norfolk!

Anyway, back to the 4th Duke and his last years! In 1568 after nearly two years absence from court, the Duke returned to the public arena and with the flight into England by Mary Queen of Scots was one of the men appointed Commissioners to investigate the charge that Mary had been complicit in the murder of her second husband Henry, Lord Darnley. It was an appropriate task for the Duke who as Guardian of the Dacre children would have ample opportunity to visit the numerous Dacre estates during his time in York. Apparently , it was during this period that the Scottish Secretary of State, Maitland suggested that a marriage between the widowed Norfolk and Mary would be fortuitous in bringing about a Anglo - Scottish alliance and enhance Mary's prospects of restoration to her throne. Even after Elizabeth I called a meeting of the Privy council before the commissioners had settled the matter of Mary's guilt, Norfolk tarried in the North where he purported wanted to 'inspect the defenses.'

Upon his return south, Norfolk failed to realize just how close to the wind he was sailing. He had lost the support of Burghley, the Queen's most trusted adviser, having been one of the principal causes of the statesman's fraught difficulties over Anglo - Spanish relations. Burghley regarded Norfolk as one of his most significant rivals and wasted little time in evaluating the rumours about some of the conversations that had taken place in York. Ironically, Elizabeth who heard of the proposed match from the Scots Regent Moray, seems to have initially at least, not taken against the idea, and even asked Norfolk several times to his face what his intentions toward Mary were. Norfolk for his part appears to have vacillated and bluffed, on the advice of Leicester, who promised to broach the subject for Norfolk with the Queen. But these scenes, and the Queen's apparent neutral interest galvanized Norfolk into regarding such a marriage as more than just a far fetched pipe dream but increasingly as a very real possibility. What Norfolk failed to grasp was that in his continued flummery over this project, he provoked irritation and eventually suspicion in his Queen and cousin. Even Moray, the Regent of Scotland, who had initially been in favour of the match soon cooled in his support.

With the rising of the Catholic nobles in the north at the same time as Norfolk was pussy footing around the rumours of his desired marriage to Mary, Burghley saw his chance to misrepresent Norfolk's intentions and place the Duke at the very centre of the plot to replace Elizabeth with Mary and restore England to the old religion. The Northern Earls rebelled and were soundly suppressed and Norfolk was thrown into the Tower, where he spent ten months. Perhaps Leicester's confession to the Queen, that he had promise his support to Norfolk in his intentions toward Mary caused the Queen to distance herself from the entire affair. Nevertheless, Burghley failed to gather enough evidence to have Norfolk tried for complicity in the rebellion and he was finally released. Thereafter Norfolk lived very quietly but under a permanent cloud of suspicion whilst Burghley and Walsingham worked tirelessly to keep him under surveillance and gather more evidence against him for future purposes.   

« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 06:11:07 PM by Toots »

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2009, 06:07:18 PM »
Fascinating information Toots, you really could write a book! Not only do you have all the knowlege, but you also express it very fluidly and approachably (if that's a word!).

I also found the posts about ducal 'stats' extremely interesting! At the risk of completely upsetting the apple cart, perhaps when you've finished about the 4t duke of Norfolk, maybe it would be an idea to jump to something else, perhaps discussing a duke of a completely differnt era?? Since you're the expert here Toots, anyone with any questions about the Norfolks, or anyone who wishes to initiate a new discussion on them - or any other dukedom - can do so, without us being confined to doing things chronologically. Does this sound ok or am I insane??
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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2009, 06:20:20 PM »
Hi Alix,

My what treacherous times to be living.  I can't imagine Norfolk even considering marrying Mary - both Catholics and Elizabeth suspicious of everyone's motives both political and religious.

But, I must say I admire the man for gaining a fortune by marrying his sons to 3 heiresses from the same family - the monies all stay "Allin the Family"!!!  Smart boy...

I'm loving this thread!!!  Thanks...



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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2009, 06:40:45 PM »
I would be delighted to leave the Norfolks for a while at least! I did wonder about possibly plucking a Duke or Duchess from the late Victorian/ Edwardian era as they were at the epicentre of the halcyon era in which many personalities discussed in other threads lived!

There are all sorts of personalities to choose from including 'Sunny' Marlborough who was anything but, his wives Consuelo and Gladys were equally fascinating! The 8th Duke of Devonshire, who turned down the premiership three times and saved himself for the love of his life, Louise, Duchess of Manchester both deserve space here. Then there is Louise's absolutely awful son, George, 8th Duke of Manchester and his even more appalling son and successor. Others include the extraordinary 5th Duke of Portland who built a labyrinth of palatially decorated picture galleries, a ball room and numerous reception rooms underground at Welbeck and used to hide himself from everyone including almost all of his servants!

The 9th Duke of St Albans' eldest son and successor was locked up in an asylum as was his youngest son who apparently deliberately set fire to a building at Eton during his brief time there! Then there is Bend'or Westminster, who I tend to think was an out and out misogynist, but goodness me was he a charmer too and what a life he enjoyed!

The Beauforts, who became so closely linked to the Royal Family for a while seem rather staid when compared to some of their ducal contemporaries!

There are heaps of characters to choose from!

I completely take on board what you have suggested Liam and hope someone might act on your kind suggestion and we can take it from there!

Larry I am so very pleased you like my little vignettes!!! Norfolk was a brilliant matchmaker....but then again he did have the Dacre inheritance on a plate really!

Bess of Hardwick did a similar thing with her fourth husband, the Earl of Shrewsbury's children, binding them to her children from her Cavendish marriage and thus providing for the future basis upon which collaterals of the Devonshire Dukedom flourished, namely the Cavendish Dukedom of Newcastle and later still the Cavendish - Bentinck Dukes of Portland.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 06:56:39 PM by Toots »


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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2009, 10:05:02 PM »
As suggested by Liam I shall fast forward to another era, which may interest some more of our members!

We will look at the world of Britain at the apogee of her Imperial might. Here in this 'green and pleasant,' land. 'This fortress built by nature for herself,' where hedgerows stood regular and neat, where vast monolithic factories and 'satanic mills' spewed forth endless clouds of smoke across the skyline of sprawling northern cities. 'This other Eden,' where collieries and mines issued forth from their very depths, the mineral fruits of the earth that so fortuitously ran in thick seams beneath 'This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.'

OK, OK....I know that the above is frightfully prosaic and unfortunately does not incorporate Ireland, Wales and Scotland....but I hope it may conjure up a suitable vision of the country which the aristocracy liked to envisage and extol as their native land at the end of the nineteenth century and up to the outbreak of the Great War. Hopefully some of you may even hear the rousing harmony of Elgar's Cello Concerto in your mind's ear too as you wallow in the propaganda- like prose I have pilfered in order to make my point!!!!

Also think fleets of powdered and livered footmen, jovial weather buffed grooms, venerable butlers and maids who seemed to melt into the walls as one passed. Picture decorous tennis parties and the gentle but taunting thwack of a croquet mallet sending an opponent's ball into the shrubbery during long, hazy summer afternoons, and of Village vs the Big House cricket matches, of the boys home from Eton or Harrow for the hols and their sisters walking around the school room with books on their heads, under the beady eye of a governess!

Imagine house parties, with tea trays in bed followed by breakfast in a room hung with dozens of Canalettos, a Chippendale sideboard groaning with all manner of fare from kedgeree to deviled kidneys, freshly laid eggs from the Home farm prepared in various manners by Cook, lean bacon and cured glazed hams all kept warm over spirit lamps and beneath gleaming silver lids. There may have been a personal gold tea pot for each guest at their table setting too, along with the freshly laundered snowy white napery, gilded Royal Worcester porcelain and crested cutlery as well as crisp newspapers, perhaps still warm from an assignation with an iron in the pressing room!

   The men will depart soon afterwards and proceed to slaughter countless hundred head of hand reared fowl by the end of cold autumnal and winter afternoons, and foxes would be lucky to escape the jaws of a pack of hounds more than once as the hunt on horseback, a plethora of pink coated gentleman and ladies in tailored habits indulged in a bit of archaic bloodlust. If a shoot was on, the ladies would drive out to meet the men for luncheon, served in a marquee or at one of the lodges scattered about great estates, and built for just such a purpose. Similarly a meet would do likewise if a quarry was brought down or had managed to ground at a suitably convenient time. After further sport in the afternoon the party would return to the big house in the fading light to be fortified by hot toddies and  hot baths drawn by their maids and valets, perhaps followed by a sumptuous tea in front of a roaring fire in the drawing room. Then a few hours of rest before the dressing bell announced that it was time to change for dinner. That meal over, the gentleman would remain at table for the port and humidor to be passed around whilst the ladies, in strict precedence of rank would withdraw to gossip in the drawing room. The men would arrive in time and someone would probably tinkle the ivories, as groups of four would converge at games tables for a few rubbers of bridge, perhaps accompanied by a choice of confections such as glace fruits, wafers and sherbets served with tea and coffee before bed by one, if one was lucky!

I would like to introduce Lord Hebrand Russell and his wife Mary, who from the time of their marriage in 1888 until 1893 was known as Lady Hebrand Russell and thereafter as the Duchess of Bedford. They and their peers lived in some semblance of the type of life I have tried to convey in the above blurb. For Mary Tribe, daughter of the Archdeacon of Barrackpore, going from the restraints of a thoroughly middle class ex pat background in India to marriage into one of the wealthiest of England's ducal families may have seemed daunting, but she was to never allow her elevation to obscure her individuality and in time she would use her position and husband's wealth to her advantage.

According to various sources their marriage was without affection, but the couple endured as was expected in those days and they produced one child, a son. In 1891 Lord Hebrand's father the 9th Duke shot himself in circumstances that have never fully been explained. At the time, it was reported that the Duke shot himself accidentally but over time this theory has been joined by another rather darker and tragic hypothesis. With the death of the 9th Duke, Lord Hebrand's elder brother Hastings, succeeded to the Dukedom and the entailed estates.   

« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 10:06:53 PM by Toots »


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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2009, 11:56:36 PM »
The 11th Duke of Bedford (1858 - 1940) and Mary Duchess (1865 - 1937)

In 1893 Lord Hebrand Russell's brother Sackville, 10th Duke of Bedford, who was at the time probably the second richest Duke in Britain* rather dramatically collapsed and died aged nearly forty one as he was leaving the dining room at his house in Chesham Street in London's Belgravia. Happily married for ten years to Lady Adeline Somers it had become apparent that the 10th Duke and his wife would remain childless, so though his sudden and relatively early death stunned his family, his brother's position as heir presumptive and successor did not illicit such surprise. Having trained as a younger son without much expectation of ever inheriting the Dukedom, Lord Hebrand had seen service in Egypt and was on active duty to the Vice-regal court in India when he met his future wife for the first time.

At the time of his marriage, Lord Hebrand received the fruits of provisions that had been laid down by his father in the previous decade. It was not a vast amount, but it helped to provide the army officer and his new wife with the means to set up their own comfortable establishment. In fact Lord Hebrand was more or less blackmailed into returning to England by his father, who wrote to him shortly before his marriage, 'If you care to see me - it would not be very safe to wait till "my next birthday" when I may or may not be here.' This note seems rather ominous in light of what happened soon afterwards when the Duke was 'cleaning' one of his guns! The couple settled into their first marital home, Cairnsmore in Scotland where their only child was born. Neither Hebrand or Mary were particularly sociable animals, he due in part to his shyness and she due to her deafness, which was caused by a severe bout of typhoid and would eventually become profound.

With the death of the 10th Duke Hebrand and Mary found themselves obliged by duty to move to Woburn, the vast mansion built around the remnants of a former ciscerstian monastery founded in 1145. Henbrand Duke proved to be a remarkably complex man. His passion for zoology is well known and he imported and established a herd of Pere David's deer from China between 1894 and 1901, from which all known living deer of this species are now descended within and without China! He also had a wapiti, bison and Przewalsky's wild horses. In a unique project, deer of various breed were allowed to roam free within the Capability Brown designed park at Woburn along with 'emus, cranes, rare geese and wild turkeys.' This was before the advent of safari parks such are now popular in England and include amongst their number, Woburn and Longleat, home of the wonderfully individual Alexander Thynne otherwise known as Lord Bath!

Although Hebrand Duke and Mary Duchess' marriage has been described as 'without affection.' they were devoted to one another. After the first few seasons as the new residents of Woburn, where house parties were held and society vied for an invite stay.  Friday to Sunday with the Bedfords where everyone really did have their own gold teapot assigned to them and where upwards of seventy servants ensured ones every whim was fulfilled and that the house gleamed from the rafters to the dutch tiles in the sculleries, the Duchess' increasing deafness eventually brought this brief interlude to an end and Woburn became someehat sepuchral in atmosphere. Within this vast house, the Bedfords and their son, when he was still at school and home for the holidays lived in astonishingly regulated and stiflingly grandiloquent style. Hebrand Duke took not only his duties as a landlord and custodian of the Bedford patrimony seriously, but also his poistion as  duke of the realm. Even at home behind the umber walls of his home, Herbrand expected to be maintained by a vast retinue of servants. Footmen still changed into livery for dinner, even when the diners were just Hebrand and Mary. Everything within the vast mansion revolved around this couple who became increasingly reticent as they grew older.

Considering that Hebrand was not born as heir or expected to succeed to the Dukedom in his fromative years, it is quite striking that he took on the mantle of such a patrician Duke so throughly. He seems to have been spare and aloof in manner yet demanded the full ducal treatment in his surroundings. He is a fascinating man of contradictions. He criticized the  mechanics of the House of Lords, treated his tenants with noted generosity and care. He may have lived in a style more suited to a Duke of the mid eighteenth century, but he was also a realist when it came to the administration of his estates. He parted with a huge swathe of family property on the eve of the Great war, in order to consolidate and better preserve the remaining hubs of the family properties in Devonshire, Bedforshire and in London.

Hebrand Duke was a quintessential English gentleman, notoriously ill at ease in areas of emotion and demonstrative affection. This was probably accentuated by his military training and shyness. He adored his son Hebrand, who bore the courtesy title of Marquess of Tavistock as heir to the Dukedom, but the younger man's open pacifism during the Great War created a breach between father and son which never healed. All Bedford's sensibilities, his deep regard for duty, his experience as a soldier and above all the value he put upon his family name and the onerous responsibility he felt this carried were being undermined and seemingly abandoned by his heir. Bedford refused to have anything to do with Tavistock for two decades, all links were basically severed and Hebrand Duke seemed to draw himself even more into his own carefully guarded and regulated life at Woburn. He even started trying to protect the ducal estates from his son and later from his grandson with legalities that would take years to unravel.

* Based on the agricultural depression of the time I calculate that Bedford's income would have exceeded Buccleuchs by this time because of the nature of Bedford's urban properties in London. Buccluech's properties were almost entirely agricultural in nature.

To be continued.....
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 12:01:50 AM by Toots »


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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2009, 11:58:19 PM »
The 11th Duke of Bedford (1858 - 1940) and Mary Duchess (1865 - 1937) continued:-

Mary Duchess was an altogether remarkable woman. Perhaps for want of something to do, as her hearing was limited and society thus a difficulty, Mary surrounded herself with dogs and cats and embarked on a passion for ornithology. Being the Duchess of Bedford meant she could indulge her passion in great style and Hebrand Duke bought her beautiful white hulled ocean going steam yacht on which Mary and a retinue of staff would set off annually for trips to the Arctic, Scandinavia and the Outer Hebrides. Another interest was in nursing. Mary set up her own cottage hospital at Woburn in 1898 and she acted as assistant to a surgeon and learned to be a radiologist and ran the X Ray department on her own! She devoted thirty four years to nursing and was known to her patients as 'Sister Mary.' She was also active in the "Suffragette" movement. Mary was always up at 05:45 in order to prepare her hospital for the day and even scrubbing floors herself. Breakfast at Woburn with all the ducal paraphenalia  was served at 07:00 even when guests were staying!

But it was a hobby she first took up at sixty one, for which Mary Duchess is best remembered. She took a flight from London Croydon aerodrome to Woburn and never looked back. Thereafter she trained to become a pilot, employing qualified pilots who were not only her servants but also became her friends. Mary took part in record breaking long distance flights to India 1929 and to South Africa in 1930. In 1933 she earned her 'A' Pilot's license. She always claimed that when flying her tinnitus became more bearable. In March 1937 just under an hour short of reaching her two hundredth hour of solo flying, Mary took off from Woburn and never came back. Nothing was ever found of the plane, she simply flew off into the distance and vanished.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 12:10:43 AM by Toots »