Author Topic: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.  (Read 72131 times)

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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2009, 06:21:59 AM »
Needless to say I greatly enjoyed the posts about the British dukedoms - thanks!
When you come stumbling upon this topic..... think and seek the theme from 'Brideshead Revisited'.......please  note........... NOT the film but the breathtakingly apt theme written by Geoffrey Burgon for the 1981 TV production!!! It was and remains sublime as all good music does!!! It will hopefully give many an idea of the England...ooops... I mean....Britain..... of my grand parents' time,  and those of manifold other members too! Historically no other country comes close to my "England, Wales,Scotland & Ulster"  in the hearts of so 'many' around this world we live in! It is this evocation which every poxy royal house and aristocratic dynasty of  Europe covets, rolled into one they have all hoped to be thus and maintain such a status quo, yet the (Brits- there's no such thing anymore if you ask me.... actually, was there ever such a thing a as a Britain?)/English/Scots/Welsh and some Irish have managed to maintain and 'realize' this idyll long after all the others have become dust!!!!!  Oooh.... does this sound a tad jingoistic..perhaps this is what some 'English' subjects feel when they hanker for a 'smidgeon' of pride in their past!
This is a tad jingoistic, but I think it's true. And especially poignant on this forum, where so much is centred around an empress whose ideals were British (with the exception of parliamentary government) and whose own throne became dust. I think this "ideal of British idyll and stability" and its influence upon the various reigning and non-reigning royals even could deserve its own topic.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 06:23:38 AM by Naslednik Norvezhskiy »

Offline Margot

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2010, 01:44:01 AM »
I return!

Goodness seems like a lifetime!


Thank you Tainyi for your last response! Lovely to see!

I have a question...for all and sundry.......


Can anyone amongst our number possibly throw light on the Principality of Waterloo! I have been in tentative correspondence with Stratfield Saye and I think the assistant Librarian there an absolute Love, but before I go in and really start to squirrel, can any one amongst our number really explain the fundamentals of this unique Principality and what sort of role/position it really gave the 1st Duke of Wellington before the territory was incorporated into modern day Belgium! Was the Duke a Highness with powers - Serene or otherwise! Did he have a mediatized role as Prince! What of his successors...surely as one of the most unusual Princely Houses in Europe, the Wellesleys of Waterloo deserve some attention here at AP...especially as Princess Antonia of Prussia will in time 'probably' become the next Duchess of Wellington and Princess of Waterloo! Therefore the Earl of Mornington and future 10th Prince of Waterloo, Antonia's son as a descendant of Queen Victoria merits some interest here does he notice!

Any data would be appreciated HUGELY!




 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 01:53:43 AM by Margot »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2010, 02:22:26 AM »
Interesting issue. I'm afraid I don't know more than the English Wikipedia says (the Dutch says even less): Wikipedia: Prince of waterloo
I didn't even know that there recently was a controversy in Belgium over the Prince's landholdings.

Was the Duke a Highness with powers - Serene or otherwise! Did he have a mediatized role as Prince! What of his successors...
Seems like all his descendants, even those who are not lords and ladies, are entitled to the Dutch noble title Jonkheer and Jonkvrouw, as members of the Dutch nobility! The correct predicate for them is Hoogwelgeboren Heer/Vrouwe, High-Well-Born Lord/Lady.

But what the Dutch predicate of the Prince himself might by? I think its either Hooggeboren Heer (High-born Lord), which is the predicate for Dutch dukes, marquises, counts and burggraves, or Doorluchtige Hoogheid, Serene Highness, which is the predicate for Belgian non-royal Princes. (But does that only apply to those who are Princes of the Holy Roman Empire? Several families were made princes in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands and in the Kingdom of Belgium (Grimbergen, Everberg, Merode etc.), but it seems it was more like a recognition of rank dating from the Holy Roman Empire and not new creations like Waterloo. There is one other non-royal Dutch princely family, the Princes de Riquet de Caraman, but their title also dates back to the Holy Roman Empire, so they're probably Serene Highnesses too.

The Prince of Waterloo was definately not a mediatized prince, his title was just a regular title in the nobility of the Kingdom of the United Netherlands. BTW why does he seem to belong to the Dutch (as in Hollands) post-1830 nobility when his estates seem to have been in Belgium? Because the original grantee was a friend of the Orange-Nassaus? But as he was a friend of Queen Victoria too I guess he also came into contact with her uncle, the new King of the Belgians.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:30:25 AM by Tainyi Sovetnik »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2010, 03:02:45 AM »
P.S. I see from Dutch-language sources that although the Prince-Duke collects extensive rents ($200,000 in one estimate) from his land near Waterloo in Walloon-Brabant, most of his tenant farmers are content with the situation.

Offline Margot

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2010, 03:17:25 AM »
I believe the title of Prince of Waterloo was granted to the 1st Duke by the King William I of the Netherlands! Perhaps that is why the princely title is regards as Dutch in origin! Yet another interesting contradiction, but due to the massive changes post 1815 never the less explicable!

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2010, 03:21:03 AM »
I believe the title of Prince of Waterloo was granted to the 1st Duke by the King William I of the Netherlands! Perhaps that is why the princely title is regards as Dutch in origin!
But he was King of the Kingdom of the United Netherlands, which also incorporated modern Belgium.

Offline Margot

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2010, 04:43:57 AM »
Did peers created before 1830 with designated territories in what became Belgium technically become Belgian peers or remain peers of the Dutch realm? Interesting point!? I don't know! I mean in England we have various peers of foreign designated territories formerly held and occupied by British Forces such as the Earldoms of Mountbatten of Burma, Alexander of Tunis, Kitchener of Khartoum and various Viscountcies and Baronies including that of Montgomery of Alamein! The Earldom of Nelson of Trafalgar and the Dukedom of Bronte are now held separately! It is also important to note that in almost all cases the peerages involving foreign 'military' geographical designations almost all went with British geographical designations as well! Waterloo and Bronte are amongst some that did not!

It would no doubt have been incomprehensible to the British to have given the Duke of Marlbrorough or the Duke of Wellington such titles as in Britain the title of Prince was reserved for those of the Blood Royal by birth not by merit! With the exception of Edward VII's perhaps 'snobbish' need to make the Ladies Alexandra and Maud Duff Princesses and George V's extremely 'courteous'  exception in the cases of Thora and Louie of Schleswig Holstein!

Offline Margot

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2010, 05:41:13 PM »
This feels like 'vanity' writing about my favourite subject as I noticed before very few people seemed to contribute here and I felt like I was just boring members!

I will carry on though and see if anyone does venture in sometimes.

If any one has a questions I would be delighted to try and help out and would hope others in the know would also add anecdotes and the like!

As the highest ranking individuals in the realm after the sovereign and the members of the Royal Family....Dukes are and were a breed apart in the UK! Unlike Germany, the former HRE and Russia where Princes were two a penny....Dukes in Britain were the rarest creatures after those born into the purple! As we do not have Princes comparable to mediatized and non mediatized Princes in Britain, I tend to compare Dukes to European 'Hereditary' Princes. If in Britain we had had a federal system of principalities akin to the medieval duchies that once existed in England and to the Mormaers of Scotland, than I suppose the present Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry would be the hands down winner as the modern day exemplar and survivor of a territorial magnate equatable to a Continental Prince!

 Until 1999 Dukes along with all peers of the realm had a say in the governance of the UK by hereditary right, which I believe was the last governing assembly based on hereditary right in existence in the Western Liberal Democratic world! It is absolutely fascinating to me that it was swept away in such a manner! The aristocracy of Britain has been regarded as an antithesis since the fatal Lords crisis of 1911 and was mocked and despised for decades thereafter! Now all but two of the twenty four Dukes of the realms of the UK exist beyond the walls of Westminster with no more say as to how the country is governed than Joe Bloggs down the road, who votes by right with the ballot paper at the polling station every five years or so!

And yet the principals of hereditary rule remain in place in the UK in the person of the monarch! And the Lords remains....for the time being with its 92 hereditary members elected by the ranks and the rest by reward from successive governments and opposition recommendation! The marginalization of the aristocracy in the UK is perhaps a useful yard stick by which to observe and gauge the sustainability of the House of Windsor. A century ago the aristocracy was the celebrity fodder of the likes of Punch, the Illustrated London News and The Graphic which frequently carried stories and gossip about the aristocracy! Punch in particular used sharp wit and satire with rapier-like effect and the others were more akin to reverential early versions of the modern day Celeb obsessed 'Heat' and 'Vanity Fair'. In 1901 The Tatler was reestablished directly aimed at the aspirant and ambitious social climbers as well as the aristocracy! Dukes were fascinating to the general masses in those days as were their Duchesses because they represented the highest position one could reach! They were almost as rare as Royalty and described by one wag as often being 'ducally dull', but they still fascinated and enthralled! People today often speak of A list celebrities and Hollywood royalty....I suppose in the old days the aristocracy were the A list celebrities of their day and stars of the stage were ranked below them!

I suppose the advent of the Plutocratic strata of society in the UK did much to alter perceptions of celebrity! What with mustard and biscuit manufacturers and the like becoming familiar and glamorous figures about town! The seemingly terminal decline in the value of landed income as opposed to city investment and new money no doubt contributed further to New money succeeding Old money as the latter withdrew in on itself and quietly watched its seemingly terminal decline from behind the walls of shrinking and crumbling estates! Whilst the New Money got richer the Aristocracy found itself taxed to the hilt, ironically each death of the head of the family made dying a catastrophically expensive business to deal with! Perhaps there is an irony in there somewhere? In the end the Aristocracy lost its fundamental raison d'etre as a political and social force! No longer did the Big House provide for the social welfare of its tenants as Lloyd George introduced the concept of Pensions and village schools no longer relied on Patrician subscriptions as local councils took over the running and funding from church and parish! Every aspect of the Patrician position was undermined!

I do find this all fascinating when one looks at the history of the twenty four remaining Ducal dynasties in Britain and the parallels to the Monarchy!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 05:59:49 PM by Margot »

Offline Margot

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2010, 09:57:51 PM »
Thank you Fyodor Petrovich for you kind remarks on that other thread! You have galvanized me back into action on this thread! I am humbled! I am so pleased someone likes this subject matter! It enthralls me!

It is a real treat to get the opinions of a contemporary Duke and what he perceives to be his position in British society today! In light of what I wrote above about the present House of Lords, I feel that I have been quite prescient and topical!

The present Duke of Devonshire gave a really insightful and realistic interview which was published a few weeks ago! Interestingly, the Devonshires remain one of the most enduring and seemingly secure ducal dynasties in Britain today! I put this down to their luck in having hung on to and lovingly cherished Chatsworth, enhancing and exploiting it constantly and yet still living there and maintaining it as their family home! One of the most charming aspects of Chatsworth which strikes many visitors who see it for the first time, is that it is quite accessible and quite visible from a public road and is not hidden behind walls, lodges, gate houses and copses of strategically planted trees! Its as though the house glories in its setting and is inviting attention which it rightly deserves! It is one of the most enchanting houses of it's ilk in Britain!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/court_and_social/article7032213.ece

With the death knell of hereditary peers in the Lords being imminent if a the Labour election pledge to get rid of the remaining number is implemented, Dukes and their peers will find their titles hollow and meaningless in a Britain where one the Royal Family will continue to endure as an isolated example of the hereditary privilege and pseudo-feudalism!

It has been fascinating to watch those Dukes of the last thirty years who inherited ancestral piles deal with the modern world! Visiting a glorious treasure filled house has been an English past time for centuries but it has only become an income based incentive industry in the passed sixty odd years, when many private homeowners saw the potential when the National Trust was born and visiting country houses became a popular outing opportunity for the masses!

Chatsworth, Belvoir, Blenheim and Woburn to name but four ducal seats, are hugely popular tourist destinations for foreigners as well as natives! Especially Blenheim which has been milking Winston Churchill's association with the Palace like a cash cow for decades now! And why not? It makes sense to farm his memory for every penny when he was born there and visitors can see the very room where this greatest of Britons as voted by the General population took his first precarious breath in November 1874! Even Blenheim with its hordes of Churchillian fans streaming up its gloriously dramatic front steps year round, does not turn a profit but does more or less breaks even! Every penny is ploughed back into maintaining the vast palace, gardens and estate which is an ongoing operation! The only ducal home that is never open to paying customers whether as visitors or as part of corporate entertainment, is Badminton in Gloucestershire! It was accessible briefly but sadly shut its doors after a brief dabble in letting the riff raff have a look around! The house may be seen from the outside only during the annual Horse trials! How the Beauforts have managed to keep out the droves of paying visitors is a bit of a mystery to me! I guess that the family prefers its privacy more than an income to help pay for annual repairs! The sales of the Chines Bed and the most expensive piece of furniture of it's kind ever sold at auction probably helped keep the ducal coffers topped up and the nosey parker masses out!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article401044.ece

and a charming vignette about the bed!

http://blog.londonconnection.com/?p=852&cpage=1

I have just finished reading 'A Journey Through My Family - The Wellington Story' by Lady Jane Wellesley, which is the most marvelous history of the family written by the only daughter of the present Duke of Wellington. It is peppered with lovely anecdotes about this family which is completely overshadowed by the exploits of the Iron Duke and I leaned heaps of new things about successive Dukes and Duchesses! I am about to read the political papers of the 5th Duke of Leeds!. The Dukes of Leeds are my ultimate favourite ducal dynasty! They seemed always to loiter on the fringes of the rarefied echelons which they inhabited! But they threw up a few characters who broke the mould occasionally!
 
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 10:18:32 PM by Margot »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2010, 11:02:33 PM »
I love your ducal outpourings. Please go on steady where you're heading!

The only ducal home that is never open to paying customers whether as visitors or as part of corporate entertainment, is Badminton in Gloucestershire! It was accessible briefly but sadly shut its doors after a brief dabble in letting the riff raff have a look around! The house may be seen from the outside only during the annual Horse trials!
And what a hideous sight it is! I am normally not crazy about the sterner sides of the Baroque, so Chatsworth is not very high on my list either, but as Baroque goes I admit it's quite passable in that stunning Peak District nature. But Badminton is just ugly disproportionate. Perhaps it would have looked better had that unemployed Queen Mary not turned her attention to the ivy! I can't believe the cupboard and the bed fetched that much, they look as odd as the house they hailed from.

Offline Margot

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2010, 09:53:20 PM »
This famous luncheon has been linked somewhere here on the forum before but I can not for the life of me remember where it is?!

Anyway it really was a unique occasion and should have a link here too:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6263072/Dukes-gather-for-historic-Tatler-picture.html

I always thought it a great shame that Tatler didn't manage to get all twenty four Dukes together!

The Dukes who didn't attend were:-

Charles Gordon Lennox, 9th Duke of Richmond, Lennox, Gordon and Aubigny

Seat:    Goodwood, Chichester, West Sussex

Lineage:  Charles Lennox the love child of Charles II and his French mistress Louise de Keroualle, Duchess of Portsmouth was created Duke of Richmond and Lennox when he was just three years old!  His mother engineered to ensure her son was made a Duke before her rival Barbara Palmer, Duchess of Cleveland could gain Dukedoms for her three boys! Louise was also made Duchesse d'Aubigny by Louis XIV in 1684 and this title also perpetuates through her only child! Queen Victoria recreated the Dukedom of Gordon for the 6th Duke of Richmond, Lennox and Aubigny in 1876. The vast Gordon patrimony had passed into the Lennox family with the death of the 5th Duke of Gordon in 1836.

Miscellany:     The present Duke's uncle, Charles Gordon - Lennox, Lord Settrington who was at the time heir assumptive to the Dukedoms, survived active service in World War One only to decide when bored in 1919 to join the Royal Fusiliers as a brigade signals officer and went to Archangel to fight against the Bolsheviks. He died after being shot thus leaving his brother as heir.

Hugh Fitzroy, 11th Duke of Grafton

Seat:    Euston Hall, Thetford, Suffolk

Lineage:  The only surviving Dukedom of the four created for Barbara, Palmer and her three sons. The Dukedom of Grafton was created in September 1675.

Miscellany:   The present Duke is one of the four Dukes of the realms who are Knights of the Garter, the others are their Graces of Wellington, Abercorn and Westminster

David Somerset, 11th Duke of Beaufort

Sear:     Badminton House, Great Badminton, Gloucestershire

Lineage:   The Dukedom was created for the 3rd Marquess and 7th Earl of Worcester in 1682.

Miscellany:    The present Marchioness of Worcester wife of the heir to the Dukedom, is the sister of the actress Rachel Ward. Tracy Worcester is a renowned environmentalist and champion of animal welfare.


Peregrine Cavendish, 12th Duke of Devonshire

Seat:     Chatsworth, Bakewell, Derbyshire as well as Bolton Abbey, Yorkshire and Lismore Castle, Co Waterford, Eire

Lineage:   The 4th Earl of Devonshire became Duke of Devonshire and Marquess of Hartington in 1694

Miscellany:   The 10th Duke of Devonshire's personal physician was suspected serial killer John Bodkin Adams.


John Spencer Churchill, 11th Duke of Marlborough

Seat: Blenheim Palace, Woodstock, Oxfordshire

Lineage:  John Churchill a career soldier went from son of a Dorsetshire knight to a Dukedom and Marquessate in 1702 via two Baronies (1682) and (1685) and an Earldom (1689)

Miscellany: Duchess Gladys, second wife of 'Sunny' 9th Duke of Marlborough was an early advocate of cosmetic surgery. She had paraffin wax injected into the bridge of her nose to create a 'perfect' profile. The after effects of this novel treatment would prove tragically disastrous and Gladys would never appear in public without swathes of moire veils to conceal the appalling effects of her vain folly.


 Angus Douglas - Hamilton, the 15th Duke of Hamilton and Brandon

Seat:       Lennoxlove House, Haddington, East Lothian

Lineage:  Dukedom created by Charles i in 1643

Miscellany:  The present Duke is also the Hereditary Keeper of the Palace of Holyroodhouse and his grandmother Duchess Nina, set up a wonderful country sanctuary for refugee pets of Londoners during the Second World War!


Richard Montagu Douglas Scott, 10th Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry

Seat:    Drumlanrig Castle, Thornhill, Dumfries., Bowhill House, Selkirk, Scottish Boarders., Boughton House, Kettering, Northamptonshire., Dalkeith Palace, Edinburgh (The Palace is leased out but the estate is still owned by the Buccleuch Group)

Lineage: The Earldom dates back to 1619 and was heritable through the female line hence Anne Scott 4th Countess of Buccleuch held the title and estates. She married James Crofts (Later to adopt his wife's surname) Duke of Monmouth, eldest natural son of Charles II and his mistress Lucy Walters. In 1682 The Duke and his wife were jointly created Duke and Duchess of Buccleuch so that although the Dukes titles were forfeited when he tried to oust his uncle James II in 1685, the Duchess of Buccleuch's titles remained and perpetuated. The Montagu name and estate at Boughton came to the Buccleuchs through the marriage of the 3rd Duke of Buccleuch to Lady Elizabeth Montagu, eventual sole heiress of George Montague, 1st Duke of Montagu (2nd Creation) The Dukedom of Queensberry came into the family along with the Douglas surname via the 3rd Duke of Buccleuch's grandmother, Lady Jane Douglas, wife of the 2nd Duke of Buccleuch and daughter of John Douglas, 2nd Duke of Queensberry.

Miscellany:    The current Duke of Buccleuch and Queenberry is custodian of three combined ducal inheritances and therefore the owner of the most extensive landholdings in Great Britain.

John Murray, 11th Duke of Atholl

Seat:-   Balir Castle, Blair Atholl, Perthshire

Lineage:  The Earldom of Atholl was bestowed on a Murray in 1629. The Earldom of Tullibardine (1628) was united with that of Atholl in 1670.  A Marquessate followed in 1676 and a Dukedom in 1703.

Miscellany: The Atholl Highlanders is the only private army in Europe and is 'garrisoned' at Blair Castle. For the first time in its History the Atholl Highlanders  currently has three generations of the Murray family within it's ranks. The present Duke is  Commander in Chief and his son Bruce, Marquess of Tullibardine and grandson Michael, Earl of Strathtay and Strathardie are both serving recruits.


Offline Margot

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2010, 09:55:39 PM »
Guy Innes-Ker, 11th Duke of Roxburghe

Seat:   Floors Castle,Kelso, Roxburghshire

Lineage: The Dukedom was created in 1707

Miscellany:  May Goelet, one the many Dollar Princesses who married into the British aristocracy made a rare and wonderfully happy marriage with the 8th Duke of Roxburghe. Duchess May's millions rescued Floors from looming ruin and continue to ensure its prosperity to this day.


Alexander Montagu, 13th Duke of Manchester

Seat:  Formerly Kimbolton Castle, St Neots, Huntingdon and Tandragee Castle, Country Armagh. The present Duke resides in California!

Lineage:   The 4th Earl of Manchester received a Dukedom in 1719

Miscellany: The present Duke's father and great grand father both spent time in prison. The 9th Duke was the first and only one of his particular peer group to ever spend time behind bars at HMP Wormwood Scrubs in the 1930s and the 12th Duke worked in the laundry during his spell of 'porridge' in a penitentiary in Florida


Francis Egerton, 7th Duke of Sutherland

Seat: Mertoun House, St Boswells, Scottish Borders

Lineage: The Dukedom was created in 1833 for the husband of Elizabeth Sutherland Leveson Gower, 19th Countess of Sutherland.

Miscellany: The 1st Duke of Sutherland, a native of England spent decades clearing his wife's immense Highland estates in order to make more money for his coffers. Even today the 1st Duke of Sutherland is still passionately hated and reviled throughout Scotland and amongst the Scots around the world.


James Hamilton, 6th Duke of Abercorn

Seat: Baronscourt, Newtownstewart, Omagh, Co. Tyrone

Lineage: Queen Victoria made the 2nd Marquess and 10th Earl of Abercorn a Duke in 1868 in recognition of his service as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland

Miscellany: Alexandra Abercorn and her sister Natalia Westminster have brought a fair dose of Romanov blood into two of the realms surviving Dukedoms  


Gerald Grosvenor, 6th Duke of Westminster

Seats : Eaton Hall, Cheshire., Abbeystead, Lancashire, Reay Forest, Sutherland and La Garganta, Castilla de Mancha in Spain

Lineage: The staggering Grosvenor fortune family rest primarily on the marriage of a Cheshire based Baronet to one Mary Davis who brought with her a dowry of marshy acres known as Ebury in Middlesex. It became a basic license to print money after the 2nd Earl Grosvenor who later became 1st Marquess of Westminster started dabbling in property development early 19th century style in Mayfair. The Marquess did take a huge risk with his inheritance, raising vast sums against his estates in order to start the venture. It would not be until the time of his grandson the 3rd Marquess that the money really started pouring in, as the 2nd Marquess had followed his father's entrepreneurial example and developed Belgravia! It was basically due to his immense wealth and his generosity with his lucre that the 3rd Marquess was made a Duke by Queen Victoria in 1874

Miscellany: The present Duke of Westminster is apparently loathed and despised by resentful Parisians. His entry into commercial property development in the French capital lead him into some vicious clashes with local French purveyors of flea market pitches in 2007.


James Carnegie, 3rd Duke of Fife

Seat: Elsick House, Kincardine

Lineage: Maternally impeccable! Descended not only from Edward VII legitimately but although from the wrong side of the covers, from William IV. Paternally fascinating too! The Dukedom was created in 1889 and again in 1900 when it was realized that Princess Louise would not be producing a male heir!

 Miscellany:  Every family has a bolter and the 1st Duke of Fife's family was no exception! His colourful and thrice married sister Lady Agnes Cooper must have raised a few eyebrows in royal circles! Though I dare say perhaps her brother's father in law may have looked with particular interest upon her exploits!!! Agnes produced the fascinating Alfred Duff Cooper, 1st Viscount Norwich and through her daughter Sybil, Agnes was the grandmother of the publisher Sir Rupert Hart Davis and great grandmother of noted historians Duff Hart Davis and Adam Hart Davis.






« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 10:07:47 PM by Margot »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2010, 12:22:10 AM »


I will not only crown your great overview with a ducal coronet, but also with some info on Their Graces' sporting leisure from a Norwegian perspective: While we haven't had any native dukes since the 14th century, we have since the 19th century had (and still have the occassional pleasure of) visiting British Dukes, among our lakselorder, or Salmon Lords, who when bored with the piscine pleasures of Scottish rivers, come to our wild mountain rivers in search of bigger fish. While the Dukes of Gordon, fishing in the Central Norwegian river Gaula near the coronation city of Trondheim didn't venture further north than a few degrees north of Shetland, the Dukes of Roxburghe patronize the river Alta in Norway's northernmost province Finnmark on truly Arctic latitudes, where they hobnob with fellow fishing fan King Harald V and his Sami subjects. That is further north than Arkhangelsk where the Gordon heir Lord Settrington went to fight the Reds, but thanks to the Gulf Stream not quite as cold. Of course His Grace comes to fish in summer, when the midnight sun allows for fishing around the clock!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 12:27:43 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Margot

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2010, 01:27:22 AM »
I had no idea that the present Duke of Roxburghe went fishing in Norway! Thank you for sharing that tit bit!

I have just found an old article in 'Country Life' which is basically really a property gazette for people with bags of money looking to buy palatial homes in the country! It also has a die hard country living section hence the title! Not exactly 'Horse and Hound' but nonetheless very country bumpkin-ish!

Here is an article that includes a sprinkling of Dukes and a Dowager Duchess and which exclusive clubs they belong to! All frightfully British!

http://www.countrylife.co.uk/countryside/article/279683/Clubs-you-cannot-join.html




Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2010, 08:38:19 AM »
Here is an article that includes a sprinkling of Dukes and a Dowager Duchess and which exclusive clubs they belong to! All frightfully British!
http://www.countrylife.co.uk/countryside/article/279683/Clubs-you-cannot-join.html
How arch-British. I would be tempted to join the International Dendrology Society if they take a noble pro-deciduous stance against the ghastly conifers which have been spreading like Socialism during the last century!

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Richard Montagu Douglas Scott, 10th Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry
I was intrigued to learn that Buccleuch is pronounced /bəˈkluː/. Probably a very U/non-U shibboleth!

Speaking of which:
Quote from: The Times report of the multi-ducal luncheon
David Charles Robert Manners, the 11th Duke of Rutland
Seat: Belvoir Castle, Grantham, Leics/Lincs
[..]
Miscellany: Belvoir Castle was built by Robert de Todeni, standard bearer for William the Conqueror at the Battle of Hastings
I just had to look this up and see it confirmed as Robert de Tosny. Those Latinate forms from the medieval chronicles remind me too much of Italian ice cream sellers.
(Though if His Grace like many of his collegues has turned his estate into a theme park I guess he merely is a high-end ice cream seller! (**Langued gules in cheek**)

From ice cream to crowns (which BTW is an ice cream brand here in Norway):
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John Spencer Churchill, 11th Duke of Marlborough
Seat: Blenheim Palace, Woodstock, Oxfordshire
Obviously there is a lot of very interesting stuff at this palatial ducal seat. One thing I was happy to see displayed there several years ago was the Duke and Duchesses's coronets. I thought it wonderful to behold actual examples of heraldic crowns. Apart from Marlborough, I only presume (from the ducal web presence) that the Duke of Argyll displays his coronet at Inveraray. Do you know of anyone else?

Though I guess looking at peers' coronets would be a bit more boring than watching royal regalia in the long run, as they all are alike. If I were a (loaded) duke I think my inbreeding-induced eccentricity would be to make myself a coronet that was a bit more elaborate (but of course within the regulations: eight strawberry leaves), but of real gold with jewels etc. And I would wear it a bit more often, not just sit around bareheaded hoping for a coronation to happen in my lifetime. Do you think Her Majesty would reprimand me for that? Do you know of any "mad dukes" guilty of said eccentricity?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 09:06:53 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »