Author Topic: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?  (Read 52116 times)

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Offline Mexjames

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2008, 04:38:35 PM »
Being intelligent, well-educated people, I think that the worst-case scenario passed through their minds more than once.  I think that at least the Emperor might have been well aware of this.  It might not have taken him too long to figure out what his captors were up to.  History suggests that he might have considered the possibility; that is one of the reasons of why he might have abdicated on behalf of the Heir too, and not only for himself, as he might have feared of his life as well.

Having been imprisoned by the kind of people that kept them in captivity, under a rogue government that needed legitimization at any cost, I would assume that the family as a whole would have assumed their ultimate fate.  Dr. Botkin and the other retainers might have also guessed it.  Being religious people, they would of course try to hope for the best at all times, but I think the thought of their deaths crossed their minds many times.

But that is a very personal opinion and I don't have any facts to support it. 

« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 04:46:10 PM by Mexjames »

Offline Erika

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2008, 06:38:30 AM »
As you all said. I think they knew what could happen but they still hoped that they would be rescued.

When you see this picture of Olga and Alexei, you get the feeling that they know what was to come. Olga looks so sad - like she has given up.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/AlexeiOlgaRus.jpg

Offline nena

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2008, 07:41:24 AM »
I have always believed Olga Nicholaievna and Aleksei Nicholaievich had sense; and they maybe knew what was going to happen; I think it is more interesting to discuss about IF which is your IMO, that haven't been mentioned everywhere.

Alexandra Feodorovna? Surely knew what might be happen with her; she loved Marie -Antoanette, and her fate. Aleksei said: I am frightened what they'll do with us!'

Again - remember quiet at Ipatiev cellar before Yurovsky entered in room.

It is more presentiment of IF, rather then knowledge.

Then, 'last obdenista' two days before murders. All member were quiet, one of GDs cried. Fortuitousness?

Still we don't know if more letters IF received at Ipatiev; I mean maybe soldiers purported to IF their purposes?! It is so hard to tell.

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2008, 08:54:33 AM »
Nicholas and Alexandra probably believed that an execution was very likely, but as stated before, the entire family put all their hope in being rescued. By personal accounts, I've read a number of times how people felt as if Nicholas knew his fate. Alexandra, after the abdication, may have strongly felt too that perhaps both she and her husband would be killed, but both of them hoped that no matter what would happen to them the children would be saved.

As for the children themselves, Olga Nikolaevna definitely had the best knowledge on what was happening in the outside world; Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden said that ON knew and understood the state of the country and what was going on, probably better than that of her parents. I think Olga may have strongly felt that their lives might finish; I think she became even more religious during those days and noted prayers in her notebook, asking for the strength to deal with what was going on and for their "executioners" to be forgiven. But I think, just like all her family, she hoped that there would be a rescue.

Alexei Nikolaevich had not yet reached fourteen when he was killed, but it certainly seems as if he sensed fate as well.

I can't say much about Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia Nikolaevna. The two latter seemed to have brighter spirits than their eldest sister. I don't know if Tatiana Nikolaevna ever thought that death might tragically be in store for them, but I definitely believe imprisonment was rough on her, as she like Olga also became much thinner and Charles Gibbes, their English tutor, said that Tatiana seemed even more withdrawn and haughtier to him than before. But Tatiana was a very strong girl, as she took care of the household and her brother, her parents relied on her and I believe she was an inspiration to her family. Perhaps she too thought that they would be killed, but I think she would have wanted to have kept her family's spirits up and not make things and their surrounding worse.

Overall, I think they may have thought that they were going to be killed, in particular N+A, Olga Nikolaevna and Alexei Nikolaevich (and who knows maybe Tatiana?), but in spite of all that I believe they were thankful, happy and felt blessed that they were all together as one.


Then, 'last obdenista' two days before murders. All member were quiet, one of GDs cried. Fortuitousness?



Nena, I've also thought about how there was a noticeable change in the IF's character during the last couple of days - how they seemed much more quiet and sad and one of the girls openly burst into tears. I think this might have been because the IF had been under arrest for a while and that no one had come to rescue them yet, and that each day they had no idea what was going to happen. I can't find reason to believe that anybody who guarded them in the Ipatiev House may have said something to them which would have strongly indicated that they were going to be killed.

Somebody refresh my memory, when did that fake rescue letter (by a guard?) come to the IF and where? Was it just a harsh scheme to make the IF get their hopes up?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 08:58:33 AM by Ferah »

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2008, 09:27:03 AM »
IMO, it's unlikely that any of the IF suspected the children would be killed. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Olga in particular and possibly Tatiana feared for their parents and perhaps even Aleksei -- he being the symbolic heir to the throne -- but I don't think OTMAA were living in fear for their own lives.

As a poster on another royal forum pointed out recently, the IF's imprisonment was more or less a cakewalk in comparison to the family of Louis XVI. They were not separated, and they were not tortured, neglected, and humiliated to anywhere near the same extent as the French royal family. So in light of their own civil treatment at the hands of the Russian revolutionaries, the IF had reason to be somewhat optimistic, even with their awareness of the history of the French revolution.


Somebody refresh my memory, when did that fake rescue letter (by a guard?) come to the IF and where? Was it just a harsh scheme to make the IF get their hopes up?

The first "officer letter" arrived on 6/19 or 7/20 June. The second came on 12/25 June, and the third on the following day.

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Offline nena

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2008, 09:36:53 AM »
I believe also, Ferah that famous 4 letters (Maybe more?) were indeed sent by White Guards, or ...I don't know.   :-\ One of assumption is also that letters were written by Reds, as you said, to get their hopes up ;

Definitely at least one of member of IF was sure what is going to happen; remember resemblance with French Revolution and fate of last members of Burbones.

Al least, they were Russians, full of mystic things in their heads; then of course they were frightened what is going to happen - cause for anybody is not all the same what is going to happen with them. It is human nature.

I think they lived trepidation and awaiting for rescue, which they unfortunately never met.

White Army had plan for rescuing them.

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2008, 04:42:57 PM »
I'm not  certain how much they knew or sensed. But, we do know that many of those who went to Tobolsk with them - and some who went to Ekaterinburg - believed that staying with them would protect the family from being mistreated. We know this from Kharitonov's grandson and many others.

The Emperor must have known he would be killed and probably also realized the Empress was also in danger. But, I'm not certain that anyone anticipated the murder of their children.

Lalee

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2008, 06:29:39 PM »
This might be a random question but, does anyone ever think that maybe the Empress felt somewhat disappointed that her husband gave up the throne and believed that if it had not happened then the family wouldn’t be imprisoned? Could she have possibly felt that Nicholas was at fault?

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2008, 08:15:53 PM »
This might be a random question but, does anyone ever think that maybe the Empress felt somewhat disappointed that her husband gave up the throne and believed that if it had not happened then the family wouldn’t be imprisoned? Could she have possibly felt that Nicholas was at fault?

Possibly. A couple tidbits that might support this idea:

Gilliard reports Alexandra saying, as she tried to decide whether to accompany the tsar to Yekaterinburg: "The commissary says that no harm will come to the Tsar, and that if anyone wishes to accompany him there will be no objection. I can't let the Tsar go alone. They want to separate him from his family as they did before (the Tsarina was alluding to the Tsar's abdication)..."

And page 85 of FOTR reports that on the same occasion Kobylinsky heard the empress remark to Tatischev: "If he is alone, he'll do something stupid, like he did before. Without me, they can force him to do whatever they want."
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Lalee

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2008, 11:47:23 PM »
Thanks, Sarushka.

I don't doubt that Alexandra remained devoted to Nicholas until the end, but perhaps if she felt that the terrible situation they were in was because of him.

I also remember that quote of Alexandra saying that she feared he'll do something stupid if she wasn't with him.

Offline nena

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2008, 07:28:11 AM »
I believe Alexandra Feodorovna really though it, as you Ferah and Sarushka said.

But monotony and dissapointment in IF's letters really show us augury....Suspense and dread made them very careful in their treatments, didn't it? And as I mentioned before, it wasn't 'all the same'  what would happen to them.

Of course, they believed till last second they will escape.
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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2008, 07:42:56 AM »
Would it perhaps have caused some sort of "drift" between them?

Offline writer_in_the_making

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2008, 02:56:30 PM »
I think that Nicholas knew he would probably be killed. I read somewhere that his hair turned almost completely gray,and in pictures he looks much older than his real age. As someone mentioned about Tatiana earlier he looked like he had just given up.
We girls, born as four but live as one,
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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2008, 03:03:12 PM »
I think that Nicholas knew he would probably be killed. I read somewhere that his hair turned almost completely gray,and in pictures he looks much older than his real age. As someone mentioned about Tatiana earlier he looked like he had just given up.


I think they all had given up, Or where close to giving up if not all some of them

Offline rusmila

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Re: Awareness of possible execution/Do you think they knew?
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2008, 11:44:56 AM »
Maybe I dont know but I think they feeling this.