Author Topic: Depression/Melancholy/Nervous breakdown during WWI  (Read 129644 times)

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matushka

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Re: Did Olga have Depression?
« Reply #120 on: October 26, 2005, 05:10:27 PM »
Hum, I am not abble to do such big translations! The best would be that some good historian or translator ask the permission and the copyright and doing a real english translation with commentaries and so on. Perhaps someone on this board would have the possibility... one day!

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Did Olga have Depression?
« Reply #121 on: October 27, 2005, 09:31:38 AM »
The translation you did was good enough. Why have not these diaries come to the attention of a professional historian, or why did someone not include these things in a biography? That kind of person is the person who could do the job. I think we should be thankful for the bit we got.  ;)

Offline Dulcinea

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Re: Did Olga have Depression?
« Reply #122 on: October 27, 2005, 08:48:22 PM »
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No, before the war, there is no evidence that Olga was ever depressed. It seems she was begining in 1914/15, it was almost a breakdown of sorts. Her depression was directly the result of her war work, no more or less. I think she was not techinally depressed after this, but that she wasn't maybe full of sunshine either.


Sometimes even people with clinical depression need a catalyst to set it off.  There are other signs of depression (IE: fatigue, headaches...) not just mania.  However, the "merriest of the merry" quote suggests to me that perhaps there was a slight emotional imbalance.  Depression is often genetic, but like I said may take a certain event to bring it to the forefront.

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But known thee with all of my  heart.**
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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Did Olga have Depression?
« Reply #123 on: October 27, 2005, 11:03:30 PM »
In my opinion, Olga had not "clynical depression", but I notice in her some "depesive behavior". Of course, it was not clynical. Clynical depression if there even if there is not any reasons to be depressed. I know several relatives of mine having clynical (and inherited) depression. They could have all the reasons to be happy, but they are sad and depressed.

No; Olga Nicholaievna was certainly depressed but she had all the reasons in the world to be depressed (She knew what Russian people thought about her parents; she was stressed by the war situation...and Revolution burst up in 1917). It was not a clynical depression, but a depression after all. Did you see her last photos? Her sisters seems to be teenagers, after all (even Tatiana), but she had all the look of a grown-up mature woman.  :-[

RealAnastasia.

elena_maria_vidal

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Re: Did Olga have Depression?
« Reply #124 on: October 28, 2005, 09:31:48 AM »
I agree, RealAnanstasia, I think that Olga N. had a deep grasp of the situation. She knew in her heart what was coming and it was a burden on her soul.  She gave it all to God and prepared herself for martyrdom.

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Did Olga have Depression?
« Reply #125 on: October 28, 2005, 10:44:22 AM »
Yes, I agree her behaviour was indicative of a depression or a breakdown, but not of serious depression. She had reasons to be depressed, so it is understandable that she was. She looked at life, in a serious way, and was really too sensitive to be a nurse in the wards. Being a nurse in the wards wasn't for her. After the revolution, in their imprisonment, sources speak of her being depressed, or at least looking at the situation very thoughtfully.

matushka

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #126 on: November 06, 2005, 03:50:36 PM »
Reading Chebotareva's diary - which is by the way full of love for Olga and Tatiana - and other sources, I came to the opinion, that Olga brocke the windows not only because she was stressed and depressed. I am afraid it was her usual behaviour, the usual behaviour of OTMAA.
Here are some stories.
Varvara Afanassievna Vilchikovskaya went to the lazaret. She has seen something brochen, totally destroyed. And asked with indignation who made this. ON answered she did. "May I ask you why were you so angry", said V.A.V. "K. came, I hate him, he is... such and such".
Other story, Olga related in a letter to the same Varvara Afanassievna. They were in Moghilev, it was boring, Olga had much fun with Dimitri Pavlovich. He heart her, and her hat for the official lunch was terribly endomaged. Olga pushed DP in the stairs, and he failed.
I am afraid there are a lot of stories in that spirit. ON and TN related Chebotareva how they argueed when they were children, how MN and AN arguee at home. It is totally sauvage!! Could not believe my eyes! I will pray Sarushka to translate this passage and share with you.
I do not speak about Aleksey, his awful behaviour is well know. He behaved himself as a 5 years old boy even when he was 12. It is unacceptable for all boys. It is really dangerous for a future tsar. It is an Olga's thread, but I found this story about Alexei is interesting here also. The Heir come to the lazaret. He is sitting in a room with Varvara Afanassievna. He saw something and asked "what if I will destroy that?" "It will a remembering of you visit", answered VAV. Alexei did nothing. A little bit later Tatiana said: "If you would have say that it is vorbidden, he would have all destroy"... At that time he was 11 years old...
So, I have a question. How was that possible, and with such a mother? And at the same time OTMA was lovely and lovefull girls, with great hearts. Why were they SO bad educated, laughing in situation when they did not had to laugh, doing just crasy and horrible things?
Well, I love them whatever I can read about them ;)

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #127 on: November 06, 2005, 05:05:06 PM »
Quote
ON and TN related Chebotareva how they argueed when they were children, how MN and AN arguee at home. It is totally sauvage!! Could not believe my eyes! I will pray Sarushka to translate this passage and share with you.

Was this in one of the Chebotareva letters I sent you? Let me know where to find it, and I will try my best to translate.

Is Chebotareva's diary available to purchase online? I'd like very much to have a look at it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sarahelizabethii »

Janet_W.

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #128 on: November 06, 2005, 06:39:42 PM »
It will be interesting to see a translation of this item.

Thinking back to my own childhood, adolescence, early adult years, and--gulp!--now, I know that various people would have various opinions of me. It is very much a Rashoman issue . . . what is perceived by one person one way may be perceived by another person another way. Factor into that one's moods, situations, and many other elements that go into the observation and recording of a personality. I have sustained friendships during my lifetime, some from as far back as elementary school, but all the same I realize there are those who would speak of me in a negative way, should the opportunity present itself. (And I admit that some of them would have valid points!)

Now, we know that while most Romanov-related autobiographies have said very positive things about OTMAA, most have also presented them as real children, with all the quirks and foibles that accompany childhood. And then there have been those who have reported negative matters, particularly with Anastasia and Alexei. Plus, I'm sure most of us can remember (tho' for the moment I can't cite) the reference about how the children "behaved like wild Indians."

First, despite the fact that I was brought up to be very proper--perhaps too proper!--there were times when I sorely disappointed my mother, and looking back, about 50% of those times I don't blame her for being disappointed. But the fact of the matter is that all of us--particularly those of us who have been brought up to be polite and decorous--also have the need to cut loose now and then.

Second, to all of you out there who have survived puberty--especially the female gender who've dealt with the initial years of menstruation--well, unless you were extremely fortunate, you know how emotional, cross, and even destructive those physical changes can make you.

From what I have read, Nicholas and Alexandra did their very best to instill manners and respect in their children. All the same, what parent has been 100% successful in turning out little autonomans? The film footage showing Alexei being physically aggressive towards one of the little boys his own age appalled me; I felt like reaching into the movie, grabbing Alexei by the shoulder, and ordering him to apologize! And considering the gentlemanly behavior of Nicholas and Alexadra's codes of propriety, I would imagine this is ultimately what happened.

Remember too that girls of a similar age tend to exaggerate a bit. I do not doubt Chebotarevna's account, and I look forward to learning more about this, but I think we should realize that her impression of the girls, and what they felt comfortable in talking about and allowing her to witness, is naturally going to be different.

Of course, for those who wish to literally and/or figuratively regard OTMAA as saints, accounts such as those by Chebotarevna may be difficult to accept. But I suspect that many of us--especially those who are a bit longer in the tooth  ;)--continue to view OTMAA as typical children in a very atypical situation who, like Anne Frank, were tragically denied their adult years.

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #129 on: November 07, 2005, 10:33:32 AM »
Quote
It will be interesting to see a translation of this item.

Thinking back to my own childhood, adolescence, early adult years, and--gulp!--now, I know that various people would have various opinions of me. It is very much a Rashoman issue . . . what is perceived by one person one way may be perceived by another person another way. Factor into that one's moods, situations, and many other elements that go into the observation and recording of a personality. I have sustained friendships during my lifetime, some from as far back as elementary school, but all the same I realize there are those who would speak of me in a negative way, should the opportunity present itself. (And I admit that some of them would have valid points!)

Now, we know that while most Romanov-related autobiographies have said very positive things about OTMAA, most have also presented them as real children, with all the quirks and foibles that accompany childhood. And then there have been those who have reported negative matters, particularly with Anastasia and Alexei. Plus, I'm sure most of us can remember (tho' for the moment I can't cite) the reference about how the children "behaved like wild Indians."

First, despite the fact that I was brought up to be very proper--perhaps too proper!--there were times when I sorely disappointed my mother, and looking back, about 50% of those times I don't blame her for being disappointed. But the fact of the matter is that all of us--particularly those of us who have been brought up to be polite and decorous--also have the need to cut loose now and then.

Second, to all of you out there who have survived puberty--especially the female gender who've dealt with the initial years of menstruation--well, unless you were extremely fortunate, you know how emotional, cross, and even destructive those physical changes can make you.

From what I have read, Nicholas and Alexandra did their very best to instill manners and respect in their children. All the same, what parent has been 100% successful in turning out little autonomans? The film footage showing Alexei being physically aggressive towards one of the little boys his own age appalled me; I felt like reaching into the movie, grabbing Alexei by the shoulder, and ordering him to apologize! And considering the gentlemanly behavior of Nicholas and Alexadra's codes of propriety, I would imagine this is ultimately what happened.

Remember too that girls of a similar age tend to exaggerate a bit. I do not doubt Chebotarevna's account, and I look forward to learning more about this, but I think we should realize that her impression of the girls, and what they felt comfortable in talking about and allowing her to witness, is naturally going to be different.

Of course, for those who wish to literally and/or figuratively regard OTMAA as saints, accounts such as those by Chebotarevna may be difficult to accept. But I suspect that many of us--especially those who are a bit longer in the tooth  ;)--continue to view OTMAA as typical children in a very atypical situation who, like Anne Frank, were tragically denied their adult years.



I agree with all of this it is so true.. people's perceptions of people are so often inaccurate and constructed on their own biases, not on what the other person actually did. Otma could have been perceived in a different way than they really were, but also they were real not some saints in a icon. They behaved normally, no more or less. Their behaviour was not abnormal for those shut up in the family circle most of their lives. If you are isolated from the outside world the customs of your family occupuy an enhanced position in your life, and you feel only your family understands you fully. I feel most people misunderstand me, and have my whole life. I have found much understanding from people on this discussion board however, and it has became one of the favorite experiences of my life.  ;DSo that is good. Otma were royalty, special, but we have to remember they lived in a different time, and might not understand some of the ways we interpret them.
Their behaviour was not always perfect, but who is perfect all the time??? No one. Janet_W, your opnions are some of the most thoughtful and wise on the board.  ;)

matushka

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #130 on: November 07, 2005, 03:46:10 PM »
Many thanks, Janet, for your wise words...
Sarushka, these passages are not in the letters you send me, but in the diary, which is not available online. I will send you a private message.

Russian_Duchess_#5

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #131 on: November 13, 2005, 03:54:10 PM »
If the other IF members found out, they probably would have kept their mouths shut. Who would want to risk further rumors? Especially about the GDs, which I dont think ever came up.

Sofi :)

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #132 on: November 14, 2005, 10:20:00 AM »
I don't know what fellow members of the Imperial Family would have thought. But I suppose some around the court, etc would have thought it confirmed the opinion that they were childish sometimes from being so secluded, and allowed to be in the court, etc.

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #133 on: November 14, 2005, 10:20:50 AM »
I meant not allowed to be at court, or in public.

Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Did Olga have Depression?
« Reply #134 on: November 14, 2005, 07:44:16 PM »
I'm new to the board, so bear with me!   ;D

When taking into account Olga's depression or not, I think you have to look at her whole life and not just the period following the tercentary (sp.?) when all hell broke loose.

Olga was the eldest child, which comes with certain responsibilities and stresses.  But, it would have been quite different for Olga.  She was the eldest daughter of the Tsar.  But - no one wanted her.  At least until she was born.  They wanted a boy, the next great Tsar who would revitalize a dying monarchy.  She was a let down.  Which is not to say her parents didn't love her, but she would possibly have to live with a sense of failure her entire life.  Made worse by the fact that not only was it her nature that was so offensive, she had no power over it.  And she was, at heart it seems, a people pleaser so it might have cut extra deep.

Then there's the basics: gilded cage, emotionally stunted upbringing (even in their teens they were as little girls), the pressures of being royalty, the looming spectre of the revolution, no friends, no real loves, etc.

And then there's Alexandra, who even on her best day could not have been an easy person to deal with.  Moody, depressed, manic, hysterical.  One moment laid low with foreboding and the next infused with an unnatural energy (which could also explain her sudden need to become a nurse - she was constantly on the move and needed to prove and validate her existence, but that's another topic entirely).  While I do agree that Alexandra did have some serious medical problems, she also had obvious psychological ones that did not result only from her personality and upbringing - they were genetic.  And it seems Olga inherited some of those, pardon the crassness of this next statement, crazy genes.  Just as Alix got them from Alice who got them from Victoria and so on.

But there's something else I have never really seen brought up: Alexei.  Up until his birth, Olga was the eldest child and potential heir (there was always a chance, if she gained enough popularity that the law could be changed and she could inherit the throne).  She was the shining star.  But then came Alexei and he stole a good deal of that shine.  Not only was he the long awaited for heir he was a child in need of constant protection and was given a great deal more attention than the other children (not to say, though, that he was loved more).  Olga was relegated, dynastically and familially (is that a word?), to the background.  And this relegation could not have been easy, even though she adored her brother.  Also, unlike the other girls who had been used to playing second (and third and fourth) fiddle Olga was completely unprepared and unlike the other girls no longer have a scktick to fall back on (Tatiana was the 'Governness', Marie was the motherly one, and Stana was the shvibzik).  She was no longer the oldest.

Again, this is just speculation - so take it with a grain of salt!