Author Topic: Depression/Melancholy/Nervous breakdown during WWI  (Read 129079 times)

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Elisabeth

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #150 on: January 02, 2006, 04:09:22 PM »
I don't know, Janet, to me these stories indicate that Olga was seriously emotionally disturbed even before the March Revolution. It's simply not normal to be destroying entire rooms of things, especially things that belong to others, if not on a regular basis, then more than once. This indicates to me a very high level of rage that was totally beyond her control, that made her act out in desperation and in fact constituted isolated cries for help... Either that, or she was as seriously spoiled as her little brother Alexei.

But I tend to think that what Olga was suffering from was a severe emotional disturbance arising from the terrible stress of her position as the eldest daughter of a much hated and maligned tsar, not to mention her other positions as the chair of numerous committees, and, perhaps most importantly of all, as the full-time nurse of dozens, perhaps hundreds of maimed and dying men. I can imagine that this combination of stressors was just about enough to drive her out of her mind. I remember reading a letter Alexandra wrote to Nicholas at the front in (I think it was) November or December 1916, in which she says that Olga went to her usual committee meeting, and board member X, normally friendly, refused to smile at her and in fact cut her (it's inferred: because of Rasputin)... We have to imagine how terribly much this must have hurt Olga. Her mother commented on the incident, "These are hard lessons [in life]" - (Sorry, maybe somebody else can supply the direct quote in Russian.) -  Tremendously hard lessons, I would suppose, for a previously very sheltered 21-year-old, and all the more hard for being so unexpected.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »

Janet_W.

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #151 on: January 02, 2006, 06:04:42 PM »
Elisabeth, you've posted a far more thoughtful analysis than mine!

My only real dispute would be that we don't know exactly what and how much Olga destroyed.  We know about the window on the bridge, yes. (Which I liken, in some respects, to that scene in It's A Wonderful Life when George and Mary purposely throw rocks at the windows of the abandoned house.) As for the cloakroom . . . according to the translations, something is either broken or in tatters. Since it is a cloakroom, one assumes the main items are items of clothing, though there could be other items. And if indeed items of clothing were left in tatters, what did Olga do . . . take a pair of scissors? Rend them with her own two hands?

In either case I would agree that, yes, her actions were the consequence of a mental/emotion problem; rational people just don't destroy things, especially when those things are the property of others.

Another interpretation might be that Olga went into the cloakroom--where she might temporarily hide from others--and began knocking things down, pulling items off hangers, etc. To the point of leaving the cloakroom askew, but not irreparable.

Interpretations being variable, and the actual document itself perhaps not as descriptive as one would like, it's hard to say what Olga really did and did not do. But of course, just the fact that she did anything at all indicates a problem!

I remember a college roommate of mine who was extremely egocentric. One day she returned to the suite that she, three others and myself shared. Upon discovering that she'd missed her boyfriend's phone call, she started screaming and, in a frenzy, going from room to room, taking out drawers and dumping their contents on the floor, then pulling down the wall posters and ripping them to shreds. I hadn't especially liked her to begin with; this particular episode was the final straw for me!

However, I admit to a certain destructiveness during my own adolescent/young adult years. I always destroyed my own property, though. For example, I have four posters, each created with India ink--one, in fact, of the Empress Alexandra--which I tore into large pieces one day, then later--filled with regret--carefully taped back together and laminated as protection against any future tirades. What inspired my rage? It's a bit personal, but this much I'll admit . . . my emotions were fueled by family issues combined with hormonal angst!

Getting back to Olga, I agree that she evidenced emotional disturbances, though how severe they were is another matter. You've mentioned quite a few reasons as to why she would suffer meltdowns; I'll suggest a few more by wondering just how frustrating it was to be expected to (1) serve as an example to her younger siblings (2) be on frequent public view (3) know that her immediate sister was not only favored by her mother but by the general public  (4) realize, as she grew older, that her beloved father was overwhelmed by both family and political issues and (5) deal with the great love story of her parents (which was legend even then) while simultaneously trying to move toward her own romantic destiny amid the machinations of immediate Romanov relatives plus European cousins to whom she either did not feel attracted or did not know very well, and being strongly attracted to at least one man whom she could never marry.

Was Olga as spoiled as her brother? No, I don't think she was; many of her recorded statements, from early childhood on through adulthood, indicate that she grappled with moral and ethical issues and at times might have been considered too sensitive for her own good. But it is true that older children sometimes revert to the behaviors of their younger siblings. Usually these reversions occur soon after a new baby brother or sister arrives; I was a toddler when this happened to me, and I remember regressing in certain behaviors because clearly you could receive far more attention if you were a baby rather than a toddler!  ;) Olga went through the "bumping" process four times, and the fourth time in particular must have been quite an adjustment, whatever feelings of goodwill she was encouraged to have. Then no sooner do you join your family in revolving around the long-awaited baby brother than you learn that he is "special" in another way: You can never play with him as you play with your sisters. And . . . you must close ranks and keep this information a secret. Passages from certain memoirs and other records indicate that as Olga grew older she often was something of a primary babysitter for Alexei and was expected to keep him in line while at the same time never denying his special status. So the possibility that Olga might have regressed to Alexei's own level of immaturity during times when she was on the brink of an emotional breakdown is not difficult to imagine.

During their initial captivity at Tsarkoe Selo Olga wrote a beautiful poem for her mother; some of the poem, in fact, is quoted near my name. I have the distinct feeling that when Olga wrote that poem she may have been subconsciously writing as much about herself as she was writing about Alexandra.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Janet_W. »

Elisabeth

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #152 on: January 08, 2006, 05:01:14 PM »
I think that's very true, Janet, about the poem Olga wrote for Alexandra. It's just the kind of intuitive, sensitive insight I've come to expect from you! :)

As usual you present a very emotionally compelling and persuasive case to support our understanding of and compassion for OTMAA. Nevertheless, family dynamics aside, it seems to me that we cannot entirely dismiss the earlier comments of Matushka. After all, we have two fairly disinterested sources, Chebotareva and Elizaveta Naryshkina, who both in so many words described OTMAA as behaving "like savages" (in the words of Naryshkina). Chebotareva in particular wrote down her perceptions of OTMAA as part of her diary and can hardly be accused of recording them with an eye toward eventual publication. To me that fact taken all by itself speaks volumes. Chebotareva may have been a biased witness – what witness isn’t biased to some degree or another? – but she was recording her impressions of the grand duchesses at the very time they were occurring. She was also, I gather, not so very far apart in age from the two eldest grand duchesses, Olga and Tatiana. For all these reasons, IMO, it is very difficult to dismiss her observations, which reinforce those of Naryshkina. Clearly OTMAA were very immature for their respective ages and acting out in very inappropriate ways, for whatever reason. Clearly they lacked any real supervision or discipline in their everyday lives. My own impression is that the daughters at least were suffering somewhat from neglect. Children who seem "spoiled" and "bratty" on the surface rarely lack for material comfort, but are frequently emotionally adrift, without clear boundaries and discipline laid out for them by their parents. They "act up" to get attention and because they might honestly know no better. I think it’s time we considered the possibility that Nicholas and Alexandra were loving but nevertheless negligent parents, at least towards OTMA. After all, OTMA’s governess Sophie Tiutcheva was dismissed and never replaced, except much later by obsequious ladies-in-waiting like Sophie Buxhoeveden. It's my impression that this was without precedent in the history of Russian grand duchesses - to be without any direct adult supervision in their daily lives – and no doubt this had very concrete and predictably bad consequences in their daily behavior.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Elisabeth »

Offline Georgiy

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #153 on: January 08, 2006, 05:09:03 PM »
I thought also at first that Chebotareva was of a similar age to Olga and Tatiana, but as she had a son fighting in the war, I think she was more likely a contemporary of Alexandra. I agree she has a lot of unbiased info about O and T, and she kept a strong affection for them right through - which is telling. they may have been 'savages', but they were endearing savages!

Elisabeth

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #154 on: January 09, 2006, 12:27:27 PM »
Yes, Georgiy, I think you are right, OTMA were charming savages, in other words, savages with hearts of gold. Most people who encountered them came away with very positive reactions. This is clear even from their Tobolsk governess' reminiscences. Klavdia Bittner disappproved of Anastasia's hold over Maria, and she didn't like Tatiana's taciturn, emotionally withholding nature, but she was very warm towards Olga (indeed she liked her the most), and overall, it must be said, faults aside, towards all of the four daughters. In other words, no matter how much she disapproved of certain individual features of some of the grand duchesses, she nevertheless came away loving all these girls. I think that's very telling, because Bittner was herself, as I recall, a member of the left-leaning intelligentsia, who would otherwise have been looking for every single fault she could find in the daughters of the last, disgraced tsar, as an excuse to dislike and criticize them. Yes, she found fault with their education - which she considered pathetic - but it seems she could find no fault with their souls. In short, she came to love them, and especially Olga.  

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #155 on: January 09, 2006, 09:42:17 PM »
Quote
I thought also at first that Chebotareva was of a similar age to Olga and Tatiana, but as she had a son fighting in the war, I think she was more likely a contemporary of Alexandra.

According to the extracts of Chebotareva's diary I'm reading from, she was born 'around 1879.'
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Janet_W.

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #156 on: January 09, 2006, 10:35:24 PM »
Wow! Great discussion on this subject!

I try to avoid saying, "They had to have been this way" or "They couldn't have been that way" because none of us--unless we are time travelers--really know. What we have to go on are records left by the Romanovs themselves; memoirs and commentaries by surviving family, friends and servants; and the testimonies of others--i.e., writers, diplomats, even ordinary citizens--who observed them, perhaps talked to them, and have recorded what they remember. And then we extrapolate, very likely taking into consideration our own experiences with human nature.

First, it seems to me that every family has its own standards--and whether you believe those standards right, wrong, or indifferent, they are a framework for those family members. The tone of Alix's family upbringing seems to have been rather sedate, compared to the hilarity and practical joking that went on within the Romanov family. So I think that Nicholas, as a father, was rather amused by his high-spirited, rambunctious girls, and did allow them to frequently run riot in private, for they reminded him of the happier times of his youth. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if Alexandra, though straight-laced in public, also enjoyed some of the mischief. Think back, for example, to that photo of Nicky's youngest sister Olga, comically posing in front of two smooching couples . . . one of whom is Sandro and Xenia, the other Nicky and Alix! And remember that later, as a mother, Alexandra joined in with her daughters in at least one pillow fight?

Nicholas and Alexandra's four daughters were frequently on public view, sitting in carriages, walking in processions, and standing for prolonged periods of time. It makes sense that their parents would cut them some tremendous slack during the non-public times at Alexander Palace and their other homes.  

As for being neglient parents . . . well, by our standards, yes, a strong case could be made for that assessment. Compared to other royal parents of the time, however, I believe they were far better parents than most. (I grant you that may not be saying much!) This goes double when one considers it was not the fashion to be terribly involved in your children's lives; that a multitude of servants stood at the ready to perform all sorts of tasks, childcare included, for Nicholas and Alexandra; and that both Nicholas and Alexandra were held to many expectations--some trivial, some considerable--which went beyond being father and mother to their children.

Also, I don't dismiss the observations of the women earlier quoted . . . in fact, I am glad they were recorded, since such observations save the children--Olga and Alexei in particular--from being plaster saints.

Very few people who have read about the children will deny that Olga was sensitive and easily stressed, before their captivity, even before the onset of World War I.  Also, it seems that Olga felt a certain freedom to act out when not under her mother's watchful eye. (And have we verified when this episode took place . . . before or after she was relocated from operation room nurse to office nurse/worker?) We do have many eyewitness commentaries stating that at public functions Olga and Tatiana--separately and together--comported themselves with dignity.  But Olga, unlike Tatiana, couldn't always maintain the same sort of consistant forbearance as Tatiana; in her letters, along with a certain amount of joking, she also indicates opinions and sometimes betrays a sense of irritation. Tatiana accepted, but Olga questioned.

We know that Olga was emotional to the point of tempermental. She also seems to have suffered during her menstrual periods. (Perhaps Tatiana did as well, but it is always Olga who seems to be lying down or out of sorts!) As she grew older Olga seems to have occasionally acted out her feelings of anger and frustration . . . to have regressed. Savage? Well, I don't know about that . . . but I think she did have a wild streak! I don't see her as being bratty, as Anastasia and Alexei have been tagged. But I do think all those emotions, which it seems she often struggled to repress,  frequently outted themselves. As the saying goes, "something's gotta give" . . . and yes, Olga may have been reacting, in part, to frustrations regarding certain aspects of her parenting. (Perhaps this was what one palace employee meant when he said that Olga was like a flapper . . . a comment I always found intriguing, since he was writing for an audience that by that time was familiar with "flaming youth"!)  By the time she and her family began living at Toblosk, however, it appears Olga had sublimated these feelings into less destructive outlets such as physical excercise (playing with Alexei, chopping wood) and writing letters.

I agree that the dismissal and nonreplacement of Sophie Tiutcheva is very telling. Whatever motivated Tiutcheva, I have the feeling her concerns were not totally unfounded.  When I was entering adolescence I began to become wary of certain male family friends, who were eyeing me in a manner very different from before. My parents were seemingly unaware of this sea change, but I certainly wasn't. (Later, of course, I read that many adolescent girls are molested by family friends and even relatives, and several of my girlfriends confided that this had happened to them.) I would not be surprised it Tiutcheva noted this type of attitude coming from Rasputin during his admittedly rare visits to the palace.

Elisabeth, you mentined Klavadia Bittner and her attitudes toward the girls. It appears she was very perceptive! I've often thought that Anastasia would have been likely to control and often hoodwink Marie, and it appears Bittner witnessed this type of thing firsthand!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Janet_W. »

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #157 on: January 10, 2006, 07:56:41 AM »
Quote
(And have we verified when this episode took place . . . before or after she was relocated from operation room nurse to office nurse/worker?)


September 5, 1915 - Breaking windows
October 9, 1915 - Katya locked in W.C.
October 19, 1915 - Olga "unable to see more wounds"
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Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #158 on: January 10, 2006, 10:30:50 AM »
Olga wasn't completely positve, she had her downside and we all have that, and should try to understand that. She seems to have been moody, emotional, tempramental, had a temper, which is merely human, she certainly wasn't bland. She was a fascinating personality who riveted those around her, and would have riveted history had she had the chance. You had to acknowledge her, she was there, was who she was, it coudn't be changed at all. She was complicated, and those who are often come under judgement for the way they act, who they are. But her way of living, the way she grew up, had faults, and she might have reacted to them, yes. She wasn't out of control or wild, at least not in any negative sense; she had energy, knew who she was, what she wanted, and questioned things. All families have their own way, that is true, they have their standards.And children are forever shaped by them, and by any event that happens. If events are negative, and impact you negatively, you have respond positevily. I think Olga tried. Her family was better than most, because they cared.

Janet_W.

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #159 on: January 10, 2006, 12:24:32 PM »
Sarushka, thank you for the timetable! The two behaviors preceeding Olga's final days as a surgical assistant indicate that esculating stress may have fueled her actions. Do we have a date on the cloakroom incident?

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #160 on: January 10, 2006, 12:29:29 PM »
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Do we have a date on the cloakroom incident?

Looks like September 14, to me. (That's the date Chebotarvea wrote about it, at least).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sarahelizabethii »
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Janet_W.

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #161 on: January 10, 2006, 01:37:08 PM »
Well then, I think we've accomplished some considerable detective/analytical work that would be the envy of not just Sherlock Holmes but maybe even Sigmund Freud!  ;)

Offline Georgiy

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #162 on: January 10, 2006, 01:57:40 PM »
Where can we read Klavdia Bittner's memoires?

Also, which memoir is it in that Olga was like a flapper? I don't recall having read this before (though I may have - I've read that much and not all of it can be expected to stay in my head!). Would like to read both those memoirs...

Janet_W.

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #163 on: January 10, 2006, 02:47:02 PM »
Georgiy, from A. A. Mossolov's At the Court of the Last Tsar, which is posted at this website (that's why I was able to retrieve the quote so easily!):

"Olga, in 1912, was already seventeen, but she still had the ways of a 'flapper'. "

Offline Georgiy

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Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #164 on: January 10, 2006, 03:14:52 PM »
Thanks Janet! That is one book I haven't looked through in detail yet.