Author Topic: Depression/Melancholy/Nervous breakdown during WWI  (Read 128392 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Janet_W.

  • Guest
Re: Did Olga have Depression?
« Reply #135 on: November 15, 2005, 10:18:36 AM »
It's difficult to say, in a matter like this . . . we can't ask Olga for confirmation on certain issues, or to think about them and get back to us later. And the records left behind are largely by people grieving for a way of life that had vanished and for people who had been most brutally murdered.

Speaking for myself, I know that a great many things troubled me during my childhood and adolescence, yet I didn't really begin to understand and have the tools to verbalize them until I was in my twenties . . . and only then because I sought professional counseling.

Looking at Olga's whole life--the years building up to those final tumultuous times--is, I agree, very important. I also subscribe to the theory that by the first five years of one's life, one's personality--influenced both by heredity and environment--is very much in place.

Being an oldest child myself, I understand the pressures and expectations that go with that position. Also, parents are not nearly as relaxed with the oldest child as they will be with succeeding children.

I do think, however, that any sense of "failure" Olga felt for being a girl would have been mitigated by having three younger sisters with whom to share whatever sense of inadequacy. And I don't think Olga was the sort of person who wanted power, so not being the heir was probably fine with her.

Having a loving but emotionally difficult mother had to have been a handicap.  And as much as she and Tatiana were a unified pair, having a younger sister who fulfilled their mother's needs far more than she also must have been a blow, of sorts, to her self-esteem. The fact that she was her father's confidante, however, probably helped to make up for this.

I wouldn't be surprised if Olga had what we would today call "mood swings." Certainly she has been described as moody. Some of this could be attributed to puberty--and, being the eldest daughter, she was the first of OTMA to deal with these hormonal changes. But since Olga was also sensitive and thoughtful, it follows that of course her moods would fluctuate, especially given all of the very real issues about her parents and Russia that she was gradually beginning to come to grips with.

As for her feelings about Alexei and his being the heir . . . Again, I doubt she had leadership ambitions, but I do think she was aware that she would need to be there for her brother and that since she was the eldest of his sisters, she might be the one he would most rely upon. In the meantime, she knew that she wanted to love and be loved, serve Russia, and perhaps create something literary and lasting.

We know that Princess Elizabeth of England ultimately came to terms with the fact that she would one day be queen. I think that, had Nicholas and his family lived in the 1940s, Olga might well have steeled herself for the possibility of being successor to her ailing brother, much as Princess Elizabeth dutifully accepted her own destiny.  Given the times, however, Russian government and society were not interested in a woman taking over--especially in light of how Alexandra was regarded--and it's entirely possible that one (mind you, just one!) of the reasons Olga "cooled" re: any romantic feelings for her cousin Felix might have had something to do with the dynastic implications. Instead, she fell in love with at least one man who was non-royal . . . perhaps taking a cue from her Aunt Olga, who had also found happiness in a non-dynastic relationship. 


Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: Did Olga have Depression?
« Reply #136 on: November 16, 2005, 10:20:43 AM »
We will never know, many of these things are right, and Olga was defintely moody, and had moments of depression being so thoughtful.I think the last post was a good explanation of everything. Olga had expectations on her, but most likely not so much as most oldest children, since her brother was the sum of all her parent's thoughts after his birth. He was the heir.But there were expectations on her to marry well, and dynastically, so she could sucessfully be a consort to a country, and carry Romanov blood elsewhere, and make good political connections. So she was supposed to marry well, a fellow royal, a important one, who was mot likely a ruler. The tried thing with Carol of Romania is evidence of this. So Olga did have pressures on her in this way.

M_Breheny

  • Guest
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #137 on: November 21, 2005, 05:23:43 PM »
Besides being curious about Olga breaking windows, the following entry from her diary has perplexed me.
 
October 9, 1915
"...I am sitting in Mr. Gilliard's rooms near the door to his water-closet where Trina's little nasty girl Katya is sitting locked in by Anastasia and myself.  We've just drawn her along the dark passage and pushed her in...Katya is still locked in the W. C.  She is knocking and wailing behind the door but we are implacable..."

Incidentally, I originally found this diary entry on the Alexander Palace Main Page under Diaries and Letters.  The link for Diaries of Olga N., however, has been removed from the home page.  Any idea why?   Any comments on the above entry?

Janet_W.

  • Guest
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #138 on: November 21, 2005, 07:02:20 PM »
Well, I don't think it's any secret that OTMA could be rambunctious and practical jokers! We'll never know the entire story, of course, but it would appear that Katya had been getting on their nerves. I'm sure if Alexandra had heard what they had done, they would have received a stern reprimand.

My own interest in this entry concerns Katya and her mother Trina, whom I'm thinking might have been a servant . . . any ideas on who they were?

matushka

  • Guest
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #139 on: November 22, 2005, 03:26:50 AM »
Catherine Schneider was commonly called Trina in the family. But I think she did not married, wasn`t she? So it might be an other servant with name of Catherine, as her daughter (Katia is a nikename for Catherine also).
I think it is not from a diary entry but from a letter to Nicolas Alexandrovitch?

Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #140 on: November 22, 2005, 09:47:45 AM »
Well, we know Otma weren't angels although they are good role models. They had their moments of being human, and this is one of them, that's all, just like the windows. I have been intrigued by this passage since I read it, but then I am intrigued by all their letters, for the human glimpses they provide of Otma.

Janet_W.

  • Guest
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #141 on: November 22, 2005, 02:24:19 PM »
Yes, I had thought about Catherine Schneider, but you're right, Matushka, she did not marry. In fact, Romanov employees often did not marry--and when the women did so, they typically left their jobs--so taking this a step further, I'm wondering if Katya was a little sister, niece, great niece, etc., rather than a daughter, to our "mysterious" Trina?!

matushka

  • Guest
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #142 on: November 22, 2005, 04:15:38 PM »
My english is poor and I wanted to ask if the world "girl"  mean also  "daughter" or not. Unfortunetly I do not know the original text. We could also imagine that Katia might have been a pupil of Catherine Schneider or some relative? I have not heard about other "Trinas", and Olga did not specifize, which let me think it is Catherine Schneider. I check the Empress's letters for those days and did not found any mention of feminals friends and visitors. So the mystery is still entire!

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #143 on: November 22, 2005, 04:27:47 PM »
Quote
My english is poor and I wanted to ask if the world "girl"  mean also  "daughter" or not.

Nope -- girl refers to any young female, while daughter refers specifically to the parent/child relationship. In other words, a daughter must be a female, but does not have to be a young person.

doch' = daughter
dochka = [no English equivalent]
devochka = little girl
devushka = girl/young woman
zhenshchina = woman
:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sarahelizabethii »
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

M_Breheny

  • Guest
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #144 on: November 22, 2005, 07:18:56 PM »
This is just a thought, but could Katya have been Catherine Schneider's maid?

Offline Georgiy

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2024
  • Slava v vyshnikh Bogu
    • View Profile
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #145 on: November 22, 2005, 07:45:44 PM »
I was thinking the same - 'girl' could be used to refer to the maid.

Janet_W.

  • Guest
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #146 on: November 22, 2005, 09:23:41 PM »
My next question would be, "Then about how old would this 'girl' be?" And why would she be judged "nasty"? As we know from so many accounts, OTMA were remembered as being courteous to palace help, which makes this entry all the more baffling. At its most unpleasant level it has the sound of an unfair situation--two against one, with the two in question being in a position to have their way--but perhaps it was more the kind of "horsing around" that goes on when energies are high and emotions are giddy.

Offline Romanov_fan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4611
    • View Profile
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #147 on: November 28, 2005, 10:41:24 AM »
I think it was just horsing around, that it wasn't anything else. I don't think it was nasty or mean or any such thing. I think we sometimes read what the Romanovs wrote and then apply our modern understanding to it, which isn't accurate because we can't fully understand their world. I think Otma were nice to the palace help, in general, but like everyone else had moments of being not so nice, or horsing around. Accounts say that Anastasia sometimes ''played hard'', that she was rough or even nasty. This could have been a example of that. However, it was more than likely their horsing around misinterpreted by us. ;)

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #148 on: January 01, 2006, 10:58:10 PM »
Quote
Varvara Afanassievna Vilchikovskaya went to the lazaret. She has seen something brochen, totally destroyed. And asked with indignation who made this. ON answered she did. "May I ask you why were you so angry", said V.A.V. "K. came, I hate him, he is... such and such".

It is an Olga's thread, but I found this story about Alexei is interesting here also. The Heir come to the lazaret. He is sitting in a room with Varvara Afanassievna. He saw something and asked "what if I will destroy that?" "It will a remembering of you visit", answered VAV. Alexei did nothing. A little bit later Tatiana said: "If you would have say that it is vorbidden, he would have all destroy"


Here are my translations of Chebotareva's stories:

Varvara Afanas’evna with horror saw in tatters the cloakroom in her room. “Who did this?”
“Yesterday I was in a rage,” answered Olga Nikolaevna.
“But may I ask why you wished to become angry?”
“When that idiot arrived, K… It’s very silly, I can’t stand him, imagining that he is a relative, and that is why without fail he tries to grab my shoulder.”

More than once one became thoughtful about how it will be with the heir, who as a result of his upbringing is so little occupied. He is a naughty child, not thoughtful, undeveloped. And from birth, I think, very gifted, but now, like a little goat with an ox, capers and fools around, dni accompanied by Derevenko and his children. He sat with Varvara Afanas’evna in the storeroom, with interest carefully examining the shelves of cut up cotton zubchikami. “You did that yourself? And what if I destroy it?”
“It would remain as the memory of your visit.” He didn’t disturb it.
“But if you had told him, ‘It is forbidden,’ he would certainly have destroyed it.” Tatiana Nikolaevna added later.


As you can see, you did very well with your translations, matushka!
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Janet_W.

  • Guest
Re: Olga Breaking Windows
« Reply #149 on: January 02, 2006, 11:28:34 AM »
These stories are invaluable, providing us with a side of the imperial children that typically we do not see. And yet, for those of us who have read extensively about the children and are reasonably familiar with their personalities, are any of us truly surprised by what the anecdotes reveal?

It makes absolute sense that the children--particularly Alexei-- would be testing boundaries and attempting to come to grips with who they were and what was expected of them.

As for Olga's impetuous destructiveness? Considering the hormonal changes she had been experiencing, the psychological constrictions she had been dealing with, not to mention coping with  "The Bigger Picture" of an ongoing war which--as a sensitive and intellectually curious young woman--had to have troubled her in a way that the more practical Tatiana did not allow herself to be troubled . . . well, of course all of this anxiety and stress would cause her to occasionally disregard the proprieties and emotionally implode.