Depression/Melancholy/Nervous breakdown during WWI

[clockworkgirl21]

She just said she found it on one of the many Romanov boards all over the internet, and since I'm the Romanov expert of us, she asked me if it was true, since she thought it was too dark for Olga to do, also. So it's safe to assume Olga never did it? That's good.

[grandduchess_sofia]

God i hope not, i've been that depressed and i hope she never got that bad,

[Lanie]

I highly doubt it.  There is so much misinformation on the internet.

[Janet_W.]

I don't know that Olga would become upset over "the smallest thing" . . . but I do think that, aside from her ability to laugh and be merry (which many photographs have captured) she was essentially a contemplative person with a tendency to take Life seriously.

Consider what is going on in the world today: Most of us are aware of the many tragedies, but then we "shelve" that knowledge and go on living our lives as before. There are those, however, who are affected by what they hear or read and keep it in their consciousness, often directing their lives towards a cause that heretofore (and seemingly) had nothing to do with them.

Who knows if Olga cut herself? I agree with Lanie that there's a heck of a lot of misinformation on the Internet. Also, there's a danger of applying a current malaise--including those with certain trendy cachets--to people who lived generations ago and had very different lifestyles from you and I. Still, dealing with stress is a universal issue, and a timeless one as well. For example, more than one person who knew him has written that Nicholas found consolation in exercise. And we know today that exercise is one of the best ways of relieving stress! Some of us have theorized that Tatiana purposely stayed slender as a means of control. I could also play armchair psychologist by saying that Anna Vyrubova overate because she felt herself to be a social misfit--and possibly there's some truth to that. So with regards to Olga . . . well, who knows? We know  she found an outlet in her writing--i.e., composing poetry, and keeping in touch with people such as Rita Khitrovo and her former professor. Beyond that, it's difficult to say. So regarding the cutting issue, I'd want to know the person's source material.

[Michelle]

Very interesting post, Janet.  Definitely thought provoking.    I guess if Olga became overly depressed, I suppose I could see her cutting herself, of course never telling anyone.  She was certainly the most melancholy of OTMA at least in MHO, and also the one who had the most tendency to be anorexic even though she was always thin.  Tatiana most likely had this tendency as well, but I think from what I've read about Olga and just "getting to know her," it seems like the tendency was more prevalent in her.  I like your armchair psychologist posts, Janet!

[La_Mashka]

Oh wow...


This is serious, but I dont think it happened.  

There would have been evidence (diary entries, guard reports...)

Remember they were kept under constant surveillance, and they lived in very "cramped" quarters where they couldn't really get away from each other, so it would have been hard for her to find the time, the place, and be careful enough to hide any scars from the rest of her family.

I seriously doubt it.

[Arianwen]

Janet, your post just left me speechless. I completely agree with everything you said, and I have the greatest admiration for your skill in articulating it. As Lanie pointed out, there's a huge amount of misinformation on the internet, but Olga WAS the type to feel things deeply. Remember the account of her seeing the crippled child, finding out that the parents had no money for the medical bills, getting their information, and paying the bills out of her own allowance (Massie, p 135 of my paperback edition of 'Nicholas And Alexandra'). Tatiana tended to be more practical, a bit like we are today with 'shelving' tragedies that we see on the telly, but Olga was a very empathetic soul.

Also, I always wondered something, and I can't help but think I'm not the only one...we all know Olga and Tatiana were the closest of friends and shared everything. They even dressed alike. Did it never strike anyone else as odd that Olga, the dreamer, knew what was coming, but her best friend and confidante, the more level-headed, realistic Tatiana, had no idea? I always thought that Olga would have confided her fears in her sister, or that if Olga knew, Tatiana would have seen the same signs. I just find it incredibly hard to believe that Olga would have known and not Tatiana. Perhaps Olga just verbalised it while Tatiana kept it inside? Thoughts?

Regards,
Arianwen

[Elisabeth]

I don't think Olga cut herself, I think this is a case of someone in pain projecting her own suffering on to a historical figure whom we identify with suffering. It is yet another example of how closely people identify with the last tsar's children and especially with Olga. Their pain becomes ours and vice versa.

Also, I always wondered something, and I can't help but think I'm not the only one...we all know Olga and Tatiana were the closest of friends and shared everything. They even dressed alike. Did it never strike anyone else as odd that Olga, the dreamer, knew what was coming, but her best friend and confidante, the more level-headed, realistic Tatiana, had no idea? I always thought that Olga would have confided her fears in her sister, or that if Olga knew, Tatiana would have seen the same signs. I just find it incredibly hard to believe that Olga would have known and not Tatiana. Perhaps Olga just verbalised it while Tatiana kept it inside? Thoughts?

I think you raise an interesting point. My own theory is that by the end of June, 1918, both Nicholas and Olga suspected that the worst could very well happen, while Alexandra continued to hold out hope that they would be rescued (hence her continual references in her diary to "arranging the medicines" and "arranging things"). We know that Tatiana was the daughter closest to her mother and thus we can safely assume that she would have followed Alexandra's lead. I also think that if Tatiana occasionally had doubts - as was only natural, from time to time, given their dire situation by midsummer of 1918 - she sought refuge in religion, more so even than Olga. From everything I have read, it seems that Tatiana's was a conventional and unquestioning piety, without intellectual content. I am sure she placed all her trust in God and did not suffer from the dark bouts of pessimism that seem to have afflicted the more sensitive and cerebral Olga.  

[grandduchess_sofia]

I have always thought that, even if only on a subconsious level, that they knew what was going on. Perhaps it is only because Olga was so open about everything that she seems to be the only one of the girls to realise the trouble they were in.
Or perhaps they did notice but because of Olga's well known perceptive and open nature, people just chose to emphasise her knowlege of the situation to help re-inforce her character and separate her personality from her sisters different personalities.
I am very sorry if no-one undersatnds what i've written, i have a tendency to write and think too fast and come up with complete nonsense!

[RealAnastasia]

Perhaps all family could feel what was coming, but they put their faith in God. They must have thought that if it was God Will, they must be safe in no time, and if they must to die, they were ready to accept the fact.

 Olga , who liked to analyze things, who loved books and maybe for this, knew more about the world than her sisters (only in theory, of course) must have known that there was not hope at all, and that they will be murdered. I don't know if she could imagine how awful their death will be, but she seemts to have been aware about a brutal end.

  In the movie "Nicholas and Alexandra", you may see Alexei assuming this point of view, as if they child would have known all the time the fate of all of them. But there is not evidence about Alexei being aware of such a thing, and I suppose nor Anastasia and Maria . As for Tatiana...well, there is not y favorite daughter , and as Elizabeth said, I saw her as an inquestioning person. I always feel that Tatiana is the Romanov girl that I know the least. Olga was the unpractical dreamer, Maria loved little children and marriage and was very clumsy, Anastasia was the family clown...but Tatiana? She only seems to have been a plain girl doing all her family wanted from her. I don't want to be rude, but I see her like this. She was religious, of course, but not a mystical, passionate one as her mother was.

  Well; I'm getting confused myself. So I stop this here.  

RealAnastasia.

[Arianwen]

In case my earlier post was misunderstood, I certainly wasn't saying that Olga was the type to cut herself. I don't believe such a thought even occurred to her. Her faith was too strong to seriously consider suicide, and I was agreeing with Janet that we can't place all of today's trends and such in different time periods. We're more liberal and daring today than they would ever have dreamed, and some things are more 'accepted' in today's society that wouldn't have even been considered back then, such as cutting oneself, etc.

Everyone makes good arguments about Tatiana being religious like her mother, but so was Olga. Tatiana always combined a dreamer's nature with practicality, unlike Olga, so if Tatiana didn't figure things out on her own, who else would Olga really confide in? Would she choose to burden her father more, or would she talk to her best friend and sister? Just given Tatiana's nature, the more capable and grounded of the two sisters, I can't see Olga knowing what was coming without Tatiana knowing as well. They called Tatiana 'The Governess' for a reason, and she was left in Tobolsk instead of going with her parents in Maria's place because she was the most capable of running a household and organising care of Alexei. How could a girl that mature be in the dark while her older, less practical sister knew what was coming? I'll happily admit that Tatiana is my favourite of the daughters, but she certainly was no slouch even compared to Olga. Especially when separated from their parents, Olga and Tatiana must have talked about what was to happen, so it's my belief that they both knew what was coming, and they were both prepared for it. Remember that both girls were described as dangerously thin toward the end, not just Olga, so it's my belief that the knowledge of what was to come was a shared burden between the two girls, but they certainly didn't say anything to the younger children. Tatiana was the type who would have kept that knowledge to herself, while Olga would have felt the need to verbalise it in letters and journals, etc. Also, in the end, according to 'Fate Of The Romanovs', Olga and Tatiana were clinging to each other, like two people who had known the end was coming and were prepared to face it as they'd lived: together.

Regards,
Arianwen

[clockworkgirl21]

I agree that Nikolai and Olga probably knew they weren't going to be rescued, and that the end was near. Aleksandra and Tatiana kept hoping help would come. I have to say that Maria and Anastasia probably agreed with Aleksandra and Maria, and probably Aleksey, too.

[Holly]

Was Olga depressed? Most likely.
Did she cut herself? Not likely.

Don't you think that each of the girls would have been at least a LITTLE depressed? I find it hard to convince myself that they weren't. Being pulled from a near heavenly isolation, and pushed into a boring and monotonous life with nothing to do but hope for a rescue and watching your own family being verbally, and most likely physically abused by cruel gaurds while hardly getting enough to eat. I think that if anyone had been put in their position, they would definetly be depressed.
I don't think that there is at all a chance that Olga would have went as far as cutting herself. For one thing it would have been nearly impossible to sheild it from her family which she was constantly with every moment.  Especially her sisters. I personally think that Olga was too smart for self-mutilation. I just couldn't see her doing that.

[Arianwen]

I agree that Nikolai and Olga probably knew they weren't going to be rescued, and that the end was near. Aleksandra and Tatiana kept hoping help would come. I have to say that Maria and Anastasia probably agreed with Aleksandra and Maria, and probably Aleksey, too.

I agree that the younger children had no idea. Nikolai had an idea, as did Olga, but Aleksandra was really in her own little world where her grandmother was still alive and they'd be protected through her connections. There's a difference between hoping help will come, and being in complete denial, and I think Tatiana was trying to keep her mother's hopes alive, as well as those of the rest of the family, while knowing that those hopes were probably false ones and believing as Nikolai and Olga did. Tatiana was religious, but not stupid, and not naive like her mother was.

Regards,
Arianwen

[Elisabeth]

Still, it's appropriate to remember that we really don't know for a fact that Olga thought the entire family were going to die. This assumption rests mainly on our interpretation of other people's impressions of her. Sophie Buxhoeveden describes Olga as very depressed and worn out by her worries during the last weeks at Tobolsk; Klavdia Bitner said that Olga gave one the impression that something terrible had happened to her (Bitner liked Olga very much). We know from the guards' testimony that she also appeared very depressed and even sickly during her imprisonment at Ekaterinburg.

Additionally we know that Olga was very close to her father, and that he, at least, seems to have undergone some kind of major emotional crisis in late June, early July 1918 - as witnessed by a sudden week-long gap in his diary, followed by smaller gaps for the remainder of his life. So we might assume - but it is still speculation - that he was worried that his family might perish with him (for it must have been obvious to him at this point that he at least was going to be killed) and that he might have shared some of his concerns with his eldest daughter (or she might have shared hers with him, since I can't quite envision a good father like Nicholas burdening his daughter with his own fears). Finally, there is a brief letter ascribed to Olga which has been published but as far as I know never verified by historians as actually having been written by her (it was published in a memorial book put out by an Orthodox monastery), saying that whatever happened to the IF, her father wanted people to forgive it.

I suspect the truth is that everyone in the IF - except possibly Anastasia and Maria - had their doubts from time to time. Certainly the eldest children must have been living in fear for their father's life, if not their own. They knew from their history lessons what traditionally happened to deposed kings. When hopes for rescue faded in the last weeks of their lives we know from Father Storozhev's account that the entire family appeared depressed, even in despair. Possibly they all suspected by this point that there would be no happy ending for any of them.