Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 323459 times)

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helenazar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #600 on: March 01, 2008, 11:34:29 AM »
The French text reads "ayant laisse en paix les Grandes Duchesses" - having left the Grand Duchesses in peace. You may or may not consider this to be the "definitive" text, but please do not accuse me of misrepresenting source material.

I believe the original Volkov was written in Russian (?) - correct me if I'm wrong - and this is where Margarita was getting her source material.

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #601 on: March 01, 2008, 11:35:20 AM »
The French text reads "ayant laisse en paix les Grandes Duchesses" - having left the Grand Duchesses in peace. You may or may not consider this to be the "definitive" text, but please do not accuse me of misrepresenting source material.

I believe the original Volkov was written in Russian (?) - correct me if I'm wrong - and this is where Margarita was getting her source material.

Look, Tweedledee - please read the post to which I was responding.....
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

helenazar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #602 on: March 01, 2008, 11:42:49 AM »
The French text reads "ayant laisse en paix les Grandes Duchesses" - having left the Grand Duchesses in peace. You may or may not consider this to be the "definitive" text, but please do not accuse me of misrepresenting source material.

I believe the original Volkov was written in Russian (?) - correct me if I'm wrong - and this is where Margarita was getting her source material.

Look, Tweedledee - please read the post to which I was responding.....

Good to see that you are still vigilant, Janet A ;-). But if this topic is driving you that crazy, you are free to remove your email alert to this thread and let others who are interested discuss it.  (Or maybe I should say "leave others in peace"  to discuss it ;-))
« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 11:50:00 AM by Helen_A »

Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #603 on: March 01, 2008, 11:47:00 AM »
For the record, I took the paragraph Margarita posted in Russian to Babelfish just to see how that translator would interpret it. The result was "Great princesses were left to their rest". (going to sleep, good night!) Again, nothing to suggest any hanky panky.

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #604 on: March 01, 2008, 11:55:48 AM »

The French text reads "ayant laisse en paix les Grandes Duchesses" - having left the Grand Duchesses in peace. You may or may not consider this to be the "definitive" text, but please do not accuse me of misrepresenting source material. I am writing from memory, but this is a point I checked with some attention the first (?) time you people went round this in 2006.

"ayant laissé" does not "strictly" mean "having left".  This is what is called "passé composée", all simple past tense in french uses "avoir" in this case.  It actually reads "he left" in English meaning exactly.  I would say "Je suis allé au marché to mean "I went to the market", but would it be more accurate to translate it as "I am went to the market"?? Obviously not.

It is beyond pedantic and frankly incorrect to place that much reliance of the use of "avoir" to mean anything more than the action was in the past.

Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #605 on: March 01, 2008, 12:02:22 PM »
The French text reads "ayant laisse en paix les Grandes Duchesses" - having left the Grand Duchesses in peace. You may or may not consider this to be the "definitive" text, but please do not accuse me of misrepresenting source material.

I believe the original Volkov was written in Russian (?) - correct me if I'm wrong - and this is where Margarita was getting her source material.

Look, Tweedledee - please read the post to which I was responding.....

Good to see that you are still vigilant, Janet A ;-). But if this topic is driving you that crazy, you are free to remove your email alert to this thread and let others who are interested discuss it.  (Or maybe I should say "leave others in peace"  to discuss it ;-))

Once again the most active threads are the ones that produce yawns among the high-minded who regard themselves as bored or claim they are beyond the subject matter. Yet still they come. The irony.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #606 on: March 01, 2008, 12:41:41 PM »
But as I've pointed out previously, Volkov himself is not misquoted in FOTR. The words "leave them in peace" are correct, and those are the only words attributed directly to Volkov. All claims that the grand duchesses were in any way abused come from the authors' mouths, not Volkov's.

No, that's not correct. The words were "would not leave them in peace". That is very different from "left them in peace", which was what Volkov really said. Another source was used to further demonstrate how the GDesses were not left in peace, and then the authors' conclusion was made that most likely something untoward had happend to the GDs, even the possibility of rape was implied - even though not exactly spelled out (things were worded in a way where the reader may imagine it).

You're mistaken. Here's a photocopy of the page in question with Volkov's quote hi-lighted:



My copy is a first edition hardcover.


Okay.  If I remember all of this correctly,  this is where the footnote number was moved by the book editor/publisher's people which has caused all this critizism.  When it was first noticed and someone posted it,  I instantly voiced, without knowing King and Wilson's story, that someone had eliminated part of a sentence or many sentences and the footnote ended at the end of the sentence printed which was the wrong place because it wasn't the correct source.  Later,  Wilson came on AP and posted,  like Ashton had retold what she knew,  that some sentences had been removed.  So when this occured,  and it doesn't matter who's to blame at this point since the error was not caught,  the error was and still is there in the book.   Helen, Annie, FA and others have read about this error on AP and later on King's and Wilson's forum.  That should have been the end of it.  Errors happen.  As much as authors would like them not to happen,  it happens.  According to Ashton,  Wilson has placed the blame on her shoulders because it was her and King's book.   So,  why  are we  thrashing through all of this again?  Because of Helen and Annie.  Everywhere, on AP,  my forum,  Annie's forum, other forums,  they coninue this attack.  Even Amazon had to eliminate their comments on the book,  which is very rare and proves how vile  these attacks have been.

I can undertand FA's concern.  He disagrees with what King and Wilson wrote.  He has been giving us his sources and his interpretation of what Volkov said.  He believes that  the drunken soldiers on the Russ would never have touched the daughters of the ex-Tsar Nicholas II.  But this is his opinion.  King and Wilson think something more might have happened.  They tell us in plain words that they nor does anyone else know everything that happened on the Russ.

FA believes that because no one else wrote anything which Gibbes remembered,  it just didn't happen.  Gosh,  if life was only so simple.

I and others are suppose to realize that we're thinking like people living in 2008 and not 1918.  Please remember,  I stated that if you read diaries and letters of other aristocracts who were prisioners of the Bolsheviks,  that  the revolutionaries anger and hatred for the rich,  in my family's case the "Kulacks"  that this spurred these revolutionaries into acts upon these people (Tsar on down to a shop keeper's cat)  that were horrific.

If you want to believe the man in charge of the guards, well,  then do, but, think,  I have,  I can realize that  of course he's not going to make any comments in any report that he had lost control of his men from 2 PM to the time the Russ docked at Ekaterinburg.

Yes,  there were a number of servents, also, on the Russ. 

Yes,  the boat wasn't that big.

Yes, the duchesses remained dressed.

Yes,  Alexei was locked in a cabin.

Yes,  the soldiers were drunk,  shooting off their guns,  and throwing grenades.

"Rodinov and his band of drunken soldiers passed from cabin to cabin, reshuffling passeingers...<  wrote King and Wilson p. 140.

And why do you think they did this?   I assume it was  intimadation.  Why would they want to intimidate their passengers?  I can speculate, why they'd  want to intimidate their passengers, can't you?  But do we know for sure?  No.

And, THEN  there is the soft hearted and frighten Gibbes.  His character is nothing like Volkov's.  Gibbes is more sensitive.  His brain is collecting every sound of every moment.  He hears the Grand Duchesses screaming.  He doesn't tell anyone.  Why should he?  The others were on board the Russia, too.  They heard what they heard.  As  FA states,  the boat was small and the walls thin.   And,  what Gibbes heard was never forgotten by Gibbes.  Later,  Gibbes tells us adopted son George  his "worst memory".   

Evidently,  FA doesn't believe Gibbes' son.  But why would Gibbe's son lie?  George  had personally seen the emotions in his adopted father's face and eyes.  This memory of Gibbes remained with George who in turn retold the story.   

Again,  let me say,  King and Wilson stated that they nor anyone else knows what happen on the Russ.  Whatever it was,  the results was something Gibbes would never forget.

Now,  you can read all sides,  and,  then make up your own mind.

And you can ask more questions.  That's part of being part of a discussion.  I assure you I will view the events differently than FA or Helen or Annie.   Perhaps it's because,  like George Gibbes,  I have personally talked to people  who suffered under the Bolsheviki  who did terrible things to them.  All were part of a revolution.  Good people often times do bad things in revolutions, and, many of the Bolsheviks  did in those times.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 12:46:16 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #607 on: March 01, 2008, 12:52:59 PM »

Again,  let me say,  King and Wilson stated that they nor anyone else knows what happen on the Russ.  Whatever it was,  the results was something Gibbes would never forget.

Now,  you can read all sides,  and,  then make up your own mind.

And you can ask more questions.  That's part of being part of a discussion.  I assure you I will view the events differently than FA or Helen or Annie.   Perhaps it's because,  like George Gibbes,  I have personally talked to people  who suffered under the Bolsheviki  who did terrible things to them.  All were part of a revolution.  Good people often times do bad things in revolutions, and, many of the Bolsheviks  did in those times.

AGRBear

Well said Bear. And a lot of us have loved ones who suffered at the hands of the Bolsheviks. But whether one does or doesn't, the questions and honest debate without nasty name calling are what matters here.

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #608 on: March 01, 2008, 12:57:29 PM »
I didn't say I don't believe Gibbes' SON.  I don't believe GIBBES necessarily meant what he son thought he did. As people get older, their memories blur and become fuzzy . They confuse events.  I'm going thru this right now with my own Dad in his 80s.  He vehemently "remembers" events that never happened and over dramatizes others into much more than they actually were.

an example.  He very lovingly gave me a watch on my last visit. "here son, take this, I never wear it. Its the Patek Phillipe your Mom gave me for my 60th birthday."  Well, it wasn't a real Patek.  It was a crude fake.  I remember twenty years ago when he won it in a golf game as a gag gift from a buddy of his.  He knew full well back then it was a bad fake.  I reminded him of it.  He became angry. NO NO NO, I REMEMBER when your mother gave this to me, its a real patek phillipe, I remember getting mad at her for spending so much money on it.

It never happened, so I let it go. 

I think it is FAR more valuable to know that Gibbes made absolutely NO MENTION of this "worst nightmare" to ANYONE EVER EVER until thirty plus years after the fact, when he was much older. THIS is why I distrust Gibbes'  "alleged" memory of the event  (that strongly coupled with the fact that NOBODY ELSE on the Rus said a WORD about this "worst nightmare" ever at any time.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #609 on: March 01, 2008, 01:24:15 PM »
FA,

You have every reason not to believe your 80 year old father. 

Evidently, George Gibbes did believe his adopted father, so, therein is the difference.

And,  I could turn around and tell you that my grandmother who was born in 1885 and lived to be 96 never forgot anything.  And, to this day everything she told me about our family genealogy has been accurate.  But your father and my grandmother were not on the Russ.  Gibbes was and he told George what he told George.  You can believe it or not believe it.  That is your choice.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

helenazar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #610 on: March 01, 2008, 01:29:55 PM »
I am much more concerned with the misquotes of Volkov than whether Gibbs' adopted son believed his father or not... Volkov was a first hand witness, while the Gibbs testimony is hearsay...

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #611 on: March 01, 2008, 01:42:49 PM »
...[in part]...

I think it is FAR more valuable to know that Gibbes made absolutely NO MENTION of this "worst nightmare" to ANYONE EVER EVER until thirty plus years after the fact, when he was much older. THIS is why I distrust Gibbes'  "alleged" memory of the event  (that strongly coupled with the fact that NOBODY ELSE on the Rus said a WORD about this "worst nightmare" ever at any time.
[/quote]

Here, again,  I can disagree.  I have time after time talked to the older generation who suddenly open up and spill out their story to me because I understand what it was like in those times.  And,  it is heart rendering to hear what they have kept locked up inside of them. 

Is every word accurate?  Of course not.  Human memory is a fasinating subject and sometimes it fails to remember the whole truth, or, sometimes  things are blown exagerated, but, many times many of the horrors remain hidden in the depths of the brain, which has it's own way of protecting it's owner.

Nothings changes.  It was Gibbes' memory which he passed on to his son.

Believe it or don't.  Like I've said,  "It's your choice."

AGRBear

PS   I'm having a difficult time placing quotes around FA's.  I must have some kinda glich working.  Sorry.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 01:44:33 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

helenazar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #612 on: March 01, 2008, 02:01:05 PM »
I am much more concerned with the misquotes of Volkov than whether Gibbs' adopted son believed his father or not... Volkov was a first hand witness, while the Gibbs testimony is hearsay...

Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #613 on: March 01, 2008, 02:12:14 PM »
I am much more concerned with the misquotes of Volkov than whether Gibbs' adopted son believed his father or not... Volkov was a first hand witness, while the Gibbs testimony is hearsay...

Well that should clear the fog for the forum's more elderly readers.

Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #614 on: March 01, 2008, 02:20:35 PM »
I am much more concerned with the misquotes of Volkov than whether Gibbs' adopted son believed his father or not... Volkov was a first hand witness, while the Gibbs testimony is hearsay...

Exactly, Volkov was there, as were Bux, Gilliard and Gibbes, who ALL wrote lengthy memoirs and not one of them mentioned any such thing. There is a chance the adopted son misunderstood something, told it wrong, or totally fabricated it because it sounded more interesting. Either way, he was not there and is not a credible witness.