The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson

[Annie]

I am much more concerned with the misquotes of Volkov than whether Gibbs' adopted son believed his father or not... Volkov was a first hand witness, while the Gibbs testimony is hearsay...

Well that should clear the fog for the forum's more elderly readers.

 

One more thing, I have known elderly relatives who told long, detailed accounts of family vacations that never actually occured, or added exciting details to an original story that didn't really happen. But mainly, we don't even know if Gibbes actually said it, or if the adopted son made it up later.

The memoirs of the others don't say a word about it, and you know, people love to put spicy details in their books to help them sell better, so surely if anything had happened they'd have loved to have told, since it was more exciting than what they wrote.

[Janet Ashton]

The French text reads "ayant laisse en paix les Grandes Duchesses" - having left the Grand Duchesses in peace. You may or may not consider this to be the "definitive" text, but please do not accuse me of misrepresenting source material.

I believe the original Volkov was written in Russian (?) - correct me if I'm wrong - and this is where Margarita was getting her source material.

Look, Tweedledee - please read the post to which I was responding.....

Good to see that you are still vigilant, Janet A ;-). But if this topic is driving you that crazy, you are free to remove your email alert to this thread and let others who are interested discuss it.  (Or maybe I should say "leave others in peace"  to discuss it ;-))

Once again the most active threads are the ones that produce yawns among the high-minded who regard themselves as bored or claim they are beyond the subject matter. Yet still they come. The irony.

Perhaps they enjoy the sniping....

[AGRBear]

The Enlgish translation of Volkov's Memoirs can be found on AP:
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/volkov/

Acording to Bob Moshein's translation, Volkov wrote

Chapter 19:

>>May 7/20, at noon, a carriage was brought for the Tsarevich. As for the rest of us, we had to go to the pier on foot. There we went on board the ship "Rus", where we settled in. They took along on board from the governor's house not only the belongings which we had, those of the Imperial Family and those of us in the suite, but also those belonging to the house and the governor's furniture. Seeing this, the Tsarevich said to Rodianov: "Why are you taking these things? They don't belong to us, they belong to other people."
"The Master is gone, it is all ours" replied Rodianov.

The boat left at two o'clock and steered in the direction of Tyumen. The conduct of the soldiers during the voyage was abominable. Absolutely no discipline. They fired gunshots and even threw grenades, without rhyme or reason, at birds, up in the air...It was a savage orgy.<<

[AGRBear]

Let me repeat:

Voklov:
>>The conduct of the soldiers during the voyage was abominable. Absolutely no discipline. They fired gunshots and even threw grenades, without rhyme or reason, at birds, up in the air...It was a savage orgy.<<

This line seems to agree with Gibbes'  memory.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

"not left in peace"

"refused to leave them in peace"

It seems to me if you deny leaving someone have peace that you are refusing to leave someone in peace.

Why do you think the meaning is twisted, Helen?

Actually I've corrected my post while you were typing your last post, they didn't exactly say that Volkov stated that they were "not left in peace" but that they "refused to leave them in peace" which amounts to the same thing, except they didn't include the word "refuse" in the quote. So technically yes, they used the exact words that Volkov said, except they twisted them to mean the opposite, which is even worse than direct misquoting in my opinion, because it demonstrates that the authors knew exactly what they were doing with that quote...

You're mistaken. Here's a photocopy of the page in question with Volkov's quote hi-lighted:



My copy is a first edition hardcover.

Earlier in the house at Tobolsk.  Volkov wrote, Chapter 19,  Bob Moshein's translation:
>>One day, Rodianov came to find me and declared: "Tell these young girls not to close the door to their room at night."

I replied that this was completely impossible. "I told you to do it" he insisted.

"It is absolutely impossible, since your soldiers would pass by there all the time in front of the open doors where the young girls would be sleeping."

"My soldiers will not pass by the open doors. But, if you do not exactly as I have ordered you to do, I have the authority to shoot you where you stand." As he spoke these words he took out his revolver.

"I will place a watchman at the door of the bedroom."
"But, that is abominable!" I shouted at him.
"That is my business" he replied.

The watchman was never posted, but the door to the grand duchess' bedroom stood wide open all night. <<

The door on the Russ to the Grand Duchesses cabin stayed wide open all night.

The Bolsheviks denied the Grand Duchesses privacy earlier in the house at Tobolsk and later on the Russ.

Who was in charge?  The same man Rodionov.

AGRBear

[Annie]

"not left in peace"

"refused to leave them in peace"

It seems to me if you deny leaving someone have peace that you are refusing to leave someone in peace.

Why do you think the meaning is twisted, Helen?

But he said they were left in peace, so both are incorrect.

Posted by: AGRBear

Let me repeat:

Voklov:
>>The conduct of the soldiers during the voyage was abominable. Absolutely no discipline. They fired gunshots and even threw grenades, without rhyme or reason, at birds, up in the air...It was a savage orgy.<<

This line seems to agree with Gibbes'  memory.

AGRBear

Bear: they were talking about the massacre of the birds, not a sex orgy.

[AGRBear]

"not left in peace"

"refused to leave them in peace"

It seems to me if you deny leaving someone have peace that you are refusing to leave someone in peace.

Why do you think the meaning is twisted, Helen?

But he said they were left in peace, so both are incorrect.

Posted by: AGRBear

Let me repeat:

Voklov:
>>The conduct of the soldiers during the voyage was abominable. Absolutely no discipline. They fired gunshots and even threw grenades, without rhyme or reason, at birds, up in the air...It was a savage orgy.<<

This line seems to agree with Gibbes'  memory.

AGRBear

Bear: they were talking about the massacre of the birds, not a sex orgy.

Who said there was a "sex orgy"?   Volkov said there was "savage orgy".  Do we need Bear to use the dictionary, again,  so you understand the words?

And,  how can you leave people in peace if guns are being firing,  grenades being thrown, and soldiers being undisciplined.... and,  doors to the cabins were left wide open so anyone passing could see the prisioners?

AGRBear

[Annie]

Who said there was a "sex orgy"?   Volkov said there was "savage orgy".  Do we need Bear to use the dictionary, again,  so you understand the words?

You said that line backed up the quote by Gibbe's son, making it look like you think it was sexual.

And,  how can you leave people in peace if guns are being firing,  grenades being thrown, and soldiers being undisciplined.... and,  doors to the cabins were left wide open so anyone passing could see the prisoners?

AGRBear

That's not the topic, it's whether or not they were left in peace in the bedroom.






[/quote]

[AGRBear]

George said Gibbes said that night carried his "worst memories" and  Volka said the Bolehviks had a "savage orgy".

Like King and Wilson wrote p. 141:

>>Almost certainly, the grand duchesses were subject to taunts and perhaps lewd advances at the hands of the drunken Latvian guards, how far this progressed as the evening wore on is impossible to determine.<<   

Thier conclusion goes no farther than  saying there probably were "taunts and PERHAPS lewd advances".

King and Wilson don't know if anything else happen or to whom?  I know I do not.  I know you and other posters do not. 

AGRBear

[Annie]

No, we don't. But we don't guess and tell it for the truth.

[Belochka]

I don't know why, but every time Margarita addresses me, I'm reminded of a large school girl with a waggng finger and her hands on her hips, approaching the miscreant with a bunch of friends lurking behind, some giggling, others just staring..

Question 1. Are you really so stupid that  you don't know that authors also make "editorial errors" during the editing process?
Question 2. Are you really so stupid that you think that you'd set me a trap with that one?

No apologies for the personal attacks - I am really enjoying this....;-)

... Look, Tweedledee - please read the post to which I was responding.....

Re: The author's obligation to his/her readers Thread:

.... would there ever be the remotest possibility of shutting you up ...

Wasn't referring to you. My dear, don't give yourself airs.....

How sad it is that when there is nothing intelligent to say the insults fly instead. Why do you persist with such an inhospitable attitude towards others Ms Ashton? I am reallly quite disappointed by your negativity on this Forum.

[AGRBear]

No, we don't. But we don't guess and tell it for the truth.

King and Wilson gave us some quotes,  facts, opinions and then concluded:

>>Almost certainly, the grand duchesses were subject to taunts and perhaps lewd advances at the hands of the drunken Latvian guards, how far this progressed as the evening wore on is impossible to determine.<< 

Annie, I don't see in King or Wilson mentioning a "sex orgy" in these pages we are discussing.

What you have is a bad case of what I call  "reading between the lines" and guess what,  there is an empty white space between the lines in my book, so, either you are seeing words that do not exist, or,  King and Wilson wrote something between the lines, which I doubt,  in the book you read.

AGRBear

[Belochka]

No, we don't. But we don't guess and tell it for the truth.

King and Wilson gave us some quotes,  facts, opinions and then concluded:

>>Almost certainly, the grand duchesses were subject to taunts and perhaps lewd advances at the hands of the drunken Latvian guards, how far this progressed as the evening wore on is impossible to determine.<< 

Annie, I don't see in King or Wilson mentioning a "sex orgy" in these pages we are discussing.

What you have is a bad case of what I call  "reading between the lines" and guess what,  there is an empty white space between the lines in my book, so, either you are seeing words that do not exist, or,  King and Wilson wrote something between the lines, which I doubt,  in the book you read.

AGRBear

At p 140 "Volkov later termed a savage orgy".

For the record the words "savage orgy" do not appear in my Russian language copy of Volkov.

[AGRBear]

Belochka,

Take your personal differences with Ashton to PM please.

Back to topic!

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

No, we don't. But we don't guess and tell it for the truth.

King and Wilson gave us some quotes,  facts, opinions and then concluded:

>>Almost certainly, the grand duchesses were subject to taunts and perhaps lewd advances at the hands of the drunken Latvian guards, how far this progressed as the evening wore on is impossible to determine.<< 

Annie, I don't see in King or Wilson mentioning a "sex orgy" in these pages we are discussing.

What you have is a bad case of what I call  "reading between the lines" and guess what,  there is an empty white space between the lines in my book, so, either you are seeing words that do not exist, or,  King and Wilson wrote something between the lines, which I doubt,  in the book you read.

AGRBear

At p 140 "Volkov later termed a savage orgy".

For the record the words "savage orgy" do not appear in my Russian language copy of Volkov.

I found the English translation here on AP under Volka's Memoirs which were translated by Bob Moshein and I quote again, Chapter 19:

>>The boat left at two o'clock and steered in the direction of Tyumen. The conduct of the soldiers during the voyage was abominable. Absolutely no discipline. They fired gunshots and even threw grenades, without rhyme or reason, at birds, up in the air...It was a savage orgy.  <<

Please note:  "savage orgy" is what Moshein wrote,  so,  you two will have to battle this one out because I don't have the original.

I have no idea what is missing between "air" and "It" after reading this translation.

AGRBear