Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 265605 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #720 on: March 07, 2008, 03:16:53 PM »

Bear, I need to read the chapter more carefully, the salient points are somewhat scattered and I don't want to jump to conclusions I can't support.
However, this is the passage that jumped out at me (p.470, paperback):

"Were these wounds enough to kill Marie and Anastasia? Marie certainly died that night....The evidence, as it stands, does not support any such conclusion about the possible deaths of either Grand Duchess Anastasia or Tsesarevich Alexei....How, we must ask ourselves, do we know the precise moment when, or if...Anastasia and Alexei died? Survival of the executions at the Ipatiev House does not provide evidence of rescue, nor are two missing bodies irrefutable proof of continued life. In the end, however, the complete absence of any trace of their remains means that the deaths of Anastasia and Alexei that night are only a theory of history."

The point of my original post was this: the authors, in this passage at least, were confident Marie died and Anastasia was missing. Yet I've read, probably here on this forum, the recently found remains are most likely Marie's. So where do the experts stand now? If these are Marie's remains, how do King and Wilson explain it?

Ever go out a door that will lock you in if you let it close, so you stick something like a folded newspaper in the door to prevent it from closing completely, to leave yourself a way out when the time comes? That is what I see in those passages posted by puppylove, 'leaving the door open', or at least ajar, for Anastasia to possibly still be AA. If that isn't exactly what the authors intended, what is?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 03:19:18 PM by Annie »

Offline Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #721 on: March 07, 2008, 03:26:34 PM »
Boche and Bolshevik 1923, Nesta Webster, Kurt Kerlen 2004:
Pg 61 "Francis McCullagh, erstwhile Captain British Army Intelligence Services, writes a wonderful description of the murder of the Tzar, his family and their retinue, thirteen in all, on the night of July 16/17, 1918 at Ekaterinburg (A Prisoner of the Reds, p. 150).  McCullagh visited Ekaterinburg in March 1920 and interviewed Yurovsky, the Bolshevik Jew, who singlehanded had committed this mass murder.  He indicates that Yurovsky had been well cared for by the Moscow Soviet authorities..."

In addition to the information about him being a Jew, that's also another documented account of everyone being killed that night. Here's another interesting quote, this one an account the burning of the last two bodies:

Sukhorukov in  Last Act of A Tragedy  p. 144:

>>We decided to burn two corpses on the fire and did so. For our sacrificial altar we got the last heir. The second body was the youngest daughter Anastasia.  After the corpses were burned, we scattered the ashes, dug a pit in the centre, shoveled in all the unburnt remainders,  made a fire again on the same spot and finished the work.<<


This seems to be a real mixed bag as far as the FOTR theory is concerned. It seems to back the idea that it was Anastasia and not Marie who was the body missing from the mass grave, however, it also states that Anastasia was indeed dead and burned, and not riding away in the back of a cart!

Offline Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #722 on: March 07, 2008, 03:46:45 PM »

Bear, I need to read the chapter more carefully, the salient points are somewhat scattered and I don't want to jump to conclusions I can't support.
However, this is the passage that jumped out at me (p.470, paperback):

"Were these wounds enough to kill Marie and Anastasia? Marie certainly died that night....The evidence, as it stands, does not support any such conclusion about the possible deaths of either Grand Duchess Anastasia or Tsesarevich Alexei....How, we must ask ourselves, do we know the precise moment when, or if...Anastasia and Alexei died? Survival of the executions at the Ipatiev House does not provide evidence of rescue, nor are two missing bodies irrefutable proof of continued life. In the end, however, the complete absence of any trace of their remains means that the deaths of Anastasia and Alexei that night are only a theory of history."

The point of my original post was this: the authors, in this passage at least, were confident Marie died and Anastasia was missing. Yet I've read, probably here on this forum, the recently found remains are most likely Marie's. So where do the experts stand now? If these are Marie's remains, how do King and Wilson explain it?

Ever go out a door that will lock you in if you let it close, so you stick something like a folded newspaper in the door to prevent it from closing completely, to leave yourself a way out when the time comes? That is what I see in those passages posted by puppylove, 'leaving the door open', or at least ajar, for Anastasia to possibly still be AA. If that isn't exactly what the authors intended, what is?

The "open door" interpretation is not unreasonable to me. However, absent a paragraph in the book saying "in our next book we will explain why we believe AA = AN" there's no concrete proof (Does this sound familiar, Annie?!) Or nothing concrete that I'm aware of yet....

I hope Janet returns to answer my original question: what concrete proof did King and Wilson have to support their statement that Marie was dead and Anastasia's status unknown?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 04:03:26 PM by Puppylove »
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #723 on: March 07, 2008, 04:20:23 PM »
You must have missed my post.

Those of us who believe GD Marie was in the mass grave use Dr. Maples as our source.  He was the American who went to Russia, saw the bones,  was able to measure them, take photos of them and later he wrote about this in his book DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES.  He was one of our best forensic scientists at that time.  And,  he wrote that the bones which the Russians claimed were GD Anastasia were to old in their growth to have been GD Anastasia's.  His assistant (I forget his name at the moment)  agreed.

AGRBear
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #724 on: March 07, 2008, 04:27:23 PM »
Because the information is on the internet,  it doesn't make the information accurate.

Do you know who wrote the two articles? 

Do you know where they found their information?

AGRBear

BTW, here are two more sources about Yurovsky, Russian websites: http://next.feb-web.ru/feb/rosarc/ra8/ra8-417-.htm  (this one is his autobiography)  " I was born in Siberia, in the city of Tomsk in 1878. My father was a glassmaker, mother – worked at home as a seamstress. I studied in a primary Jewish-Russian school but didn’t even complete the first course… "

http://www.hrono.ru/biograf/bio_yu/yurovsky.html

"Yakov Mikhailovich (Yankel Haimovich) Yurovsky was born in Siberia in 1878, in Kainsk, Tomsk County. His grandfather Itzka was a rabbi from Poltava, father Haim was sent to Siberia for theft, where he worked as a glassmaker, mother Esther Moiseevna was a stay at home seamstress. He was the eight child of ten in the family. From 1885 he got accepted into ‘Talmatero” School at the synagogue, but did not complete the first course..."   

If Yurovsky's family was so Russian Orthodox, why would Yakov have gone to a Jewish school? Why would they have kept their very Jewish names? It doesn't make sense... So far I have not found anything, in Russian or in English to contradict the earlier reports about Yurovsky growing up Jewish...

Jenn, sorry for changing the subject from the Maria/Anastasia discussion, but I wanted to respond to your earlier email and also add this information...
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 04:31:13 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #725 on: March 07, 2008, 04:46:49 PM »

The "open door" interpretation is not unreasonable to me. However, absent a paragraph in the book saying "in our next book we will explain why we believe AA = AN" there's no concrete proof (Does this sound familiar, Annie?!) Or nothing concrete that I'm aware of yet....



In an email posted on a newsgroup dated April 12, 2000, and addressed to Greg, Penny, 2 others and 'all decent people', Kurth stated:

(edited to eliminate improper content, which is also why I can't post the link, if anyone wants it, I can PM it)

Let me do it, Greg.  The work you and Penny are doing must be protected,
because you are standing on my shoulders, and I on Dominique Aucleres',
and she by authority and intimate association with Tatiana Botkin, whose
brother was Gleb Botkin, whose daughter, Marina Botkin Schweitzer, has
given her blessing to your work.

All but Marina, Gleb, and Tatiana stand also on the shoulders one
valiant woman, Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann, a Jew in Berlin, who helped
a suffering stranger find her feet in the world, and all by herself,
against giant and malevolent forces, kept our friend alive and in loving
company until the professionals, at her most urgent appeal, realized
that they had to step in and get rid of the stink.  To Frau von Rathlef,
more even than to "Alexander Tchaikovsky,"  whoever he was, Anastasia
owed her life.

I am Harriet von Rathlef's director successor, in possession of her
original notes.  With my blessing and Marina's, you and Penny will
entwine the different branches of the tree and in fact become its
crown, for there will be no more talk of definitive proof, whether it's
98.5 percent or 18.2.  By my judgment, which is impeccable on this
topic, the DNA tests are down already to 40.9 or even 6.5 or
873 or March 3 instead of June 8.  It's the difference between a
Galitzin and a Golitsyn, and percentages, of course, have no relation to
life.

I'd advise the librarians and genealogists and pop-self-promoters to
come up with a new idea pretty quick.  The test tube is now leaking
stink, which, to our minor irritation, and in the hands of a
professional, will be gone before you can think. We have always known
how easy it is to expose frauds and impostors.  We are the experts on
that.

Henceforth, only the persons above named as heirs and successors, along
with Brien Horan, Ian Lilburn, and you through our constant charge, will
be permitted to call themselves authorities on "Anna Anderson," along
with such persons as otherwise designate.  So get to it, and leave the
rats to me.  I can hear them already, hissing and spitting in their
little holes, biting somebody's toe with their little rat teeth, and,
the minute they appear again, squashed with a single blow and taken
permanently out of the house.

Fondly,

Peter Kurth


then another dated a day later:

PETER KURTH writes:

Don't wait for Atlantis -- here it is. Give it to
anyone you think should see it, and, if you care
about Anastasia, to everyone you can think of.

I have none but an advisory role, trusting Greg and
Penny to carry the torch that was put in our trust
in June 1925, in Berlin.  I have every confidence in
them. I am or sooner or later will be informed of
everything, but if you can help to make it is sooner,
and not later, I want you to and trust you to do it.

No fears or worries -- the cause is just, and it is
ours, her trusted champions and defenders, to decide
before history what the answer is.  No other evidence
or purported 98.5 proof without any doubt, in future
will be acknowledge or bothered with by anyone who
matters.

I am copying this to Dr. Terry Melton and Dr. Peter
Gill, asking your forgiveness if it isn't your wish.

Thanks you so much for writing -- you may know already
how fast the rats are on the run, and how many people
are rallying to her cause.

Peter Kurth



The 'chain of custody' then includes many posts seen by many people, here and on other sites, where one of the authors mentioned an upcoming AA book, and 'new' evidence discovered that was being saved for said book. Then we have Janet's post in this thread (or was it the author one?) saying that she'd been told that FOTR started out as a 'reexamination of the AA case' and turned into more. Clearly, the authors of FOTR were at least originally working on continuing the AA story through books. I really do think the connection between FOTR and the AA legacy, agenda, or whatever, is more than circumstantial.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 05:18:18 PM by Annie »

Offline Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #726 on: March 07, 2008, 04:55:15 PM »
You must have missed my post.

Those of us who believe GD Marie was in the mass grave use Dr. Maples as our source.  He was the American who went to Russia, saw the bones,  was able to measure them, take photos of them and later he wrote about this in his book DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES.  He was one of our best forensic scientists at that time.  And,  he wrote that the bones which the Russians claimed were GD Anastasia were to old in their growth to have been GD Anastasia's.  His assistant (I forget his name at the moment)  agreed.

AGRBear

If this was directed at me, I did read your post. Dr. Maples appears to have been wrong. Did he provide a professional opinion or was he speaking to an absolute certainty? The passage I quoted from FOTR stated unequivocally that Marie died and Anastasia's status remained unknown. Why? (asked rhetorically).
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #727 on: March 07, 2008, 04:56:22 PM »
Nothing to do with FOTR, but this is an interesting piece of AA lore I found on that same link. One woman posted:

My grandmother told my mother and me she and her first husband met
Anastasia during World War II in Germany. My grandmother felt that
Anastasia was sincere and you could tell she was a real princess from the
way she acted.

She told us Anastasia said there was a mystery about her birth that she
could not tell but it had something to do with her true mother. They
believed she meant her mother was someone else other than the Czar's
wife. She spoke of a secret treasure buried somewhere for her in Germany
and Anastasia wanted their help to find it. Did she ever get it?
Anastasia also told a horrible story about how she and all her family
including her little brother were raped by the Russians. It must have
been horrible for her.


So maybe at the time somebody (I have no idea who and am not accusing anyone) maybe had the idea to say that AN belonged to someone besides Alix and that would explain the mismatch in the DNA? This is, of course, completely false, but an interesting rumor nontheless. (also note that according to what this person said AA told her, Alexei was also raped)

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #728 on: March 07, 2008, 04:58:15 PM »
This is all very compelling and I have no doubt that this is the case (I am talking about your previous posts, not the last one - as I am sure there aren't too many people out there who would believe the Anastasia "switcharoo"), but I am not so concerned with the AA connection as I am about the blatant misquotes in the book... And there are enough to fill several very long discussion threads...
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 05:08:53 PM by Helen_A »

Offline Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #729 on: March 07, 2008, 05:08:26 PM »

If this was directed at me, I did read your post. Dr. Maples appears to have been wrong. Did he provide a professional opinion or was he speaking to an absolute certainty? The passage I quoted from FOTR stated unequivocally that Marie died and Anastasia's status remained unknown. Why? (asked rhetorically).

The reason Maples believed it was AN who was missing is that according to his examinations of the remains, none of the bodies still had the rings around the vertabrae that everyone has until they fuse with the bone at age 18- Anastasia was barely 17 and Marie was 19. This is why he believed the body was Marie and not Anastasia. In addition to that, the body buried as Anastasia is 5'7", Marie's height, and Anastasia was notoriously 5'2". The Russians who identified the remains as AN based their findings on computer imagery of the skull, however, the skull was severely damaged below the eye sockets and the center of the face was basically gone. This is why there still remains controversy over which girl was missing. Well, we'll just have to wait and see the final conclusions of all the scientists involved. I look forward to the day, hopefully soon, when all five kids are buried together, and there will finally be peace with no more rumors and myths.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 05:16:05 PM by Annie »

Offline Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #730 on: March 07, 2008, 05:09:41 PM »
This is all very compelling and I have no doubt that this is the case, Annie, but I am not so concerned with the AA connection as I am about the blatant misquotes in the book... And there are enough to fill several very long discussion threads...

I agree, but from what I've seen, some of those blatant misquotes tie in directly with the AA stuff so it is important. The only reason I dug all that out is because Puppylove asked for concrete proof. You're right, the main issue is accuracy in nonfiction historical writing.

Offline Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #731 on: March 07, 2008, 05:25:16 PM »

The "open door" interpretation is not unreasonable to me. However, absent a paragraph in the book saying "in our next book we will explain why we believe AA = AN" there's no concrete proof (Does this sound familiar, Annie?!) Or nothing concrete that I'm aware of yet....



As far as a direct quote from the authors admitting to that, as Rose said in Titanic, there wouldn't be, now, would there? For if there was a connection, they certainly wouldn't admit it, lest they discredit FOTR as an 'agenda' book. Of course they wouldn't come right out and say it. In fact, the discussion of this has been very controversial for that reason. There are many who feel this was a part of the goal (and everything does point in that direction) and some become upset when this is mentioned. (IMO this is why one of the authors got so upset, because we figured it out and we weren't supposed to)

Offline Annie

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #732 on: March 07, 2008, 06:15:14 PM »
Just to clarify one more thing pupplove- sicce it's too late to edit. Additional info tying in with the Kurth 'torch' saga is that on March 6, 2000, a post telling of the latest issue of Atlantis mag said:

*The first of a multi-part series on the case of Anna Anderson,
including new evaluation of the DNA tests and recently discovered,
startling information which contradicts their findings, by Penny
Wilson and Greg King.


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.talk.royalty/browse_thread/thread/42f3142b4e119083/859a008cd5357cf7?lnk=gst&q=atlantis+magazine+anna+anderson#859a008cd5357cf7

So here we have them setting the stage for the possibility (allegedly) that the DNA was wrong and AA might still be AN.

Then came the April declarations of the 'torch' and them working on the AA case mentioned on the previous page.

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #733 on: March 07, 2008, 06:38:37 PM »
Remember, Yurovsky wasn't a Jew after 1905, because he had converted from Russian Orthodox or Judiasm to the Lutheran religion.


Bear, I asked for clarification on this earlier; per FA (if I understood) you retained your Jewish ethnicity in Imperial Russia despite religious conversion. Is this not so? I'm not arguing, just confused.

My Jewish ancestor was listed as Lutheran once he converted from Judism in Russia.  He did not live in the Pale. And,  he owned a great deal of  land.  His passport did not show he was Jewish when migrated from Russia before the revolution.

AGRBear

I would not cite this as gospel bear.  Spiridovitch goes to great lengths discussing how Jews outside the Pale were required to have special permits to live in the area, and their passports DID indeed indicate jewish as ethnicity. Now perhaps this was relaxed for your ancestor, we of course know this means NOTHING as for Yurovsky.  Also, in the eyes of Judaism, one is ALWAYS a Jew when born to Jewish parents.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #734 on: March 07, 2008, 11:07:56 PM »

If this was directed at me, I did read your post. Dr. Maples appears to have been wrong. Did he provide a professional opinion or was he speaking to an absolute certainty? The passage I quoted from FOTR stated unequivocally that Marie died and Anastasia's status remained unknown. Why? (asked rhetorically).

The reason Maples believed it was AN who was missing is that according to his examinations of the remains, none of the bodies still had the rings around the vertabrae that everyone has until they fuse with the bone at age 18- Anastasia was barely 17 and Marie was 19. This is why he believed the body was Marie and not Anastasia. In addition to that, the body buried as Anastasia is 5'7", Marie's height, and Anastasia was notoriously 5'2". The Russians who identified the remains as AN based their findings on computer imagery of the skull, however, the skull was severely damaged below the eye sockets and the center of the face was basically gone. This is why there still remains controversy over which girl was missing. Well, we'll just have to wait and see the final conclusions of all the scientists involved. I look forward to the day, hopefully soon, when all five kids are buried together, and there will finally be peace with no more rumors and myths.


Here is what Dr. Maples actually wrote p. 256:

Body No. 5 belonged to a woman in her late teens or early twenties.  Half of her middle face was missing, a pattern of damage already seen in Body No. 3.   Dr. Levine and I agree that she was the youngest of the five women whose skeltons lay before us.  We concluded this from the fact that the root tips of her third molars were incomplete.  Her sacrum, in the bak of her pelvis, was not completely developed.  Her limb bones showed that growth had only recently ended.  Her face showed evidence of immaturity, but it was nevertheless the back of a woman at least eighteen years old.  We estimated her heigh at 67.5 inches.  The Russians told us that a bullet had been found in a lump of adipocere near the body.  We believe that skeleton is that of Marie, who was nineteen years old at the time of the murders.<<

67.5 = little more than 5 feet 6 inches

Lower down the page of 256 to 257:

>>Where was Anastasia?  None of these three young female skeletons was young enough to be Anastasia, who was seventeen years and one month old the night of the shootings.  Our Russian hosts believed that Body No. 6 the midmost of the three young females, was the long-lost Anastasia.  Alas!  We had to disagree, based on the growth patterns of the teeth, pelvises, sacra and long limbs of the three skeletons before us.  The Russians had labored manfully over Body No. 6, attempting to restore its facial bones with generous dollops of glue, stretched across wide gaps.  They had been forced to estimate over and over again, while reassembling these fragments, also none of which were touching each other in the reconstructions.  It was a remarkable and ingenious exercise. but it was too fanciful for me to buy.  Anastasia was no in tis room.

Another piece of evidence was the height of the skeletal remains.  The young woman was roughly the same height as the other two young women whose remains were discovered in the mass grave.  In photographs of Anastasia taken with her sisters a year before her death, she is shorter than Olga and noticeably shorter than Tatiana and Marie. ...<<

If the bones were viewable today,  the scientists can, now, tell by the fissures of the skull the approximate age of the remains.

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152