Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 284575 times)

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JediDeshka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #75 on: July 05, 2004, 02:59:37 PM »
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Love, Power and Tragedy is just a fabulous picture book on the last Romanovs.  Probably my favorite in the picture book category.


Geesh, Penny, I guess there's no way to get this book any cheaper! Darn, I hate it when good books like these go out of print. I payed a lot for a used copy of 'Anastasia's Album' and the book came in Russian! Oh well. So it goes.

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Those Romanovs cost me a lot of money  ;D


Thierry, this is so true! Ha ha. But they're worth the money.  :)

Deshka

rskkiya

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #76 on: July 05, 2004, 08:24:36 PM »
Well...
Now I am just going to have to get this book...as everyone here is so enamoured with it! :D

Pravoslavnaya

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #77 on: July 05, 2004, 10:28:23 PM »
I must confess that although I am not at all 'enamoured' with the book - and am in fact either uncomfortable with or unconvinced about some of the conclusions drawn therein - the book is formidable and cannot be ignored by anyone with a general interest in the Imperial Family.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2004, 04:17:20 PM »
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Yes, this is a book. Its complete title is The Romanovs: Love, Power, and Tragedy by A. N. Bokhanov et al. It was published by Leppi Publications. You can find it on Amazon.com or through the publisher's website (they are located in the UK) at http://www.leppi.com.


Picked it up for $48 from amazon used book section.

-----

Back to Myachin/Yakovlev.  Was it in his memiors about his various deeds and alliases...?    And,  how do you or other researchers confirm that these papers are authenic  and not something placed there by the communists just like they did for Halliburton whom you mention on p. 19 -20?

For those who don't have their book,  King and Wilson talked about American journalist who was given the oportunity to talk to Ermakov. And I quote:  >>"In fact, Soviet authorities had carefully managed the entire Ermakov "confession."  His translator, the mysterious Walter, was later discovered to have been an agent of the GPU. successor to the Cheka.  Many year later, Stoneman speculated the entire affiar had been designed to "feed" Halliburton, as an unsuspecting dupe, "with Moscow's prepackaged 'facts.'"<<

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Greg_King

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2004, 06:44:46 AM »
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Picked it up for $48 from amazon used book section.

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Back to Myachin/Yakovlev.  Was it in his memiors about his various deeds and alliases...?    And,  how do you or other researchers confirm that these papers are authenic  and not something placed there by the communists just like they did for Halliburton whom you mention on p. 19 -20?

For those who don't have their book,  King and Wilson talked about American journalist who was given the oportunity to talk to Ermakov. And I quote:  >>"In fact, Soviet authorities had carefully managed the entire Ermakov "confession."  His translator, the mysterious Walter, was later discovered to have been an agent of the GPU. successor to the Cheka.  Many year later, Stoneman speculated the entire affiar had been designed to "feed" Halliburton, as an unsuspecting dupe, "with Moscow's prepackaged 'facts.'"<<

AGRBear


The answer is research, pure and simple.  Yakovlev left 4-5 memoirs or statements, so we compared content, looked at what we knew to be true versus any peculiarities, looked at when things were written and deposited, etc.  While you have to exercise ordinary caution, I think suggesting that anything that originates from Russian archives or from a Soviet source is suspect is simply imposing personal prejudice.  Yakovlev's memoirs, and their content, bear no relation to the Ermakov "confession," which when it comes to what happened after the murders simply falls apart as a deliberate lie.  You always look for key indicators like distortion or error when examining anything in this case, but you also examine materials against a wider catalog of other materials that can help confirm or deny their veracity.

Greg King

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2004, 02:37:09 PM »
Who discovered the information on Myachin/Yakovlev?  

And, when was the information discovered?

And,  I must say thank you for putting up with me and all my questions throughout the Alexander Palace Discussion Board.

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 While you have to exercise ordinary caution, I think suggesting that anything that originates from Russian archives or from a Soviet source is suspect is simply imposing personal prejudice.

Greg King


Yes,  I do suspect data found in the Russian archives or from Soviet sources about the execution of Nicholas II and the others.  And, obviously so have you and Wilson, or,  you wouldn't have been so careful with double and triple checking what you found.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2004, 07:14:04 PM »
AGRBear,

Yes, Mr. King and Ms. Wilson are dealing with a very complex and argued over aspect of history, and as any serious historians would do, they want to be certain of getting the facts right.  I do not doubt that they also confirmed the information given to them by those sympathetic with the Romanovs.

R.

Abby

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2004, 11:08:11 PM »
WOw, I have learned so much on this board so far..and I thought I knew all I could! I agree with the person who said that they thought the more they read about the Romanovs' fate, the more they would know but it turns out to be the opposite!

There are so many stories and possibilities of what happened that night, that I doubt we will ever know what happened to them. So FRUSTRATING!

I never knew that Maria was flirting with the guards in Ipatiev house-- when you say that she was "caught" with Skorokhodov-- what exactly was she doing?  No other books give mention of this... very interesting, gosh!
Also interesting (I have not yet read the book, but I am asking for it for my birthday in Sept.!) is your detailed account of the murder scene, from what I read here. Where did you find such information (about how Dr. Botkin and Trupp died)?  Why can't all books be that way!

If the murders did take place (I am not saying they didn't. I just don't know!) then it would be damn peculiar to find out why the Bolsheviks went door-to-door the next morning looking for Romanovs! I have heard this many times in other publications, from Ekaterinburg residents who claim to have seen Red Guards board their trains and search for "Anastasia" or "Alexei". In "Hunt for the Czar" a man describes how his young son, who resembled Alexei, was snatched by Reds on a train and almost taken away until the father showed them that his son was not lame, and proved it to them by having the boy walk and run-- I guess something they didn't think Alexei was able to do.

So many mysteries, one on top of the other! This has got to be the hardest case of the century to crack!

Here is an easy question: does anyone have a picture of a truck that looks similar to the Fiat that was supposed to have carried the bodies? I always wondered what a 1918-era Fiat truck looked like.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2004, 01:52:44 PM »
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....
I never knew that Maria was flirting with the guards in Ipatiev house-- when you say that she was "caught" with Skorokhodov-- what exactly was she doing?  No other books give mention of this... very interesting, gosh!
....

Here is an easy question: does anyone have a picture of a truck that looks similar to the Fiat that was supposed to have carried the bodies? I always wondered what a 1918-era Fiat truck looked like.


According to King and Wilson, p. 244-45 Marie and one of the guards by the name of Ivan Skorokodov were missing.... No farther details are really known accept it caused a stir .."...entries for the period between June 24 and July 3 are frustratingl unavailable..."  The first day being the day of Marie's birthday.

As for the truck, I'm wondering if it really could carry eleven bodies .... Does  anyone have a photo?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Abby

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2004, 04:10:28 PM »
Wow there are hard to find pics on the internet of these.

1916 Fiat:http://www.armyvehicles.dk/fiattruck1916.htm

a really old Fiat (undated though it looks old)
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/fa/fiat_GebhardFlatz.jpg


Penny_Wilson

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2004, 10:20:46 PM »
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As for the truck, I'm wondering if it really could carry eleven bodies .... Does  anyone have a photo?

AGRBear


We have a photograph of the truck involved -- the make, model, etc. -- as provided to Ian Lilburn by the auto maker. I have looked around for the photo a little bit this evening, but couldn't lay my hands on it.  It had the specifications on it -- cab size, bed size, etc -- and I remember being quite surprised at how big the truck was.  

I had thought that it was maybe the size of an F150, which is what I drive, but it was actually bigger -- I want to say a 3-ton truck size, like a big dually, only without the wheel-wells cutting into the bed.  Eleven bodies could have fit fairly well, especially as this was also a stake-bed truck, with sides extending up quite far.  

The strain on the truck, I think, was not the number of bodies in the bed -- though eleven bodies plus the guards who rode along would have filled it --  but rather was the weight of the bodies.

So it wasn't a small truck at all -- don't think of the Waltons' truck here!  :D

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #86 on: July 13, 2004, 02:51:01 PM »
I'm sure I'm not alone in asking if you find the photo of the truck or one like it to place it on this thread so we all can see it.  Please.  And, thanks ahead of time.  The both of you have bee great in all of the threads where we have asked tons of questions.

On p. 316 King and Wilson talk about the truck and the bodies, also, where the guards were while traveling.  They say three (Yurovsky, Ermakov and Lyukhanov) were squeezed in the cab.  I hope one of them were smaller than the others because most truck at that time period had a stick shift that came up from the floor on the right side of the driver.  I remember as a kid finding myself in this position in an old pick-up truck and it was an unpleasant experince.  Then they say that hanging on the outside of the truck were the others  (Soames, Lacher, Verhas).  Telling us this was Kudrin / Michael Medvedev....  

Was he, also, on the truck?  Maybe on the running board, if this truck had them.

They combined the weight of 17 people to a weight of about 2,200 pounds plus one small dog, maybe.

The engine, they tell us, was sixty horsepower and the engine was prone to overheating.

To add to this was the uphill grade and then there was the mud....

p. 317 -There had been a rain storm on the 15 the of July.....

Several times the engine over heated and the engine had to be shut off.....  If you have ever been in a truck when the engine has overheated,  you know it takes a long time to be cool enough to be safe to get the radiator cap off.... because water needs to be added... then off the truck rolled toward the Four Brother's Mine.... at five to ten miles an hour...  Two hours for ten miles....  

I really think it would have taken them at least more than three or four hours.  

If they started at three in the morning that would have made it about six or seven in the morning....  

The main reason would have been the radiator and the engine lugging from all this weight.

It was the radiator that overheated, again, that caused the truck to stop next to or in Pig's Meadow...  and  King and Wilson tell us on p. 318,  "nearly four-thirty in the morning".  Attempts were made to get the truck out of the muck....  If you've ever watched men trying to get a truck out of the muck,  they don't try just once or twice.... so this took more time.

Let us not forget,  the eleven bodies had been removed.

The railroad ties had to be found by some hut and then carried to the truck.  A tie isn't light.  This, too, took time....

Truck was driven out of the muck, the bodies were reloaded and it finally slide into more muck about a mile from the Four Brother's Mine...

p. . 318 "It was now nearly four-thirty in the morning.

Unable to go farther they unloaded the bodies and placed them into "carts they  brought"...

Brought?  On the truck?  If not where did  Yurovsky and Ermakov find them and how long had this taken, I wonder?

If the open carts had been on the truck,  how much weight is to be added to the already heavy load?

p. 321-2  "It was nearly seven in the morning..." when the bodies, which had been placed in carts, stopped at the shafts known as the Four Brothers.


Oh,  let's not forget the meeting with Ermakov's group of guys who had thought they were going to get to execute Nicholas II and the others.  That little scene must have taken up even more time....

Since I know King and Wilson took great pains to add up all the events and matched them with the time slots,  I wonder, if they should have given these men more time just to get to this point in time.  If they do, does that mean certain things could not have happen by the time Yurovsky returned to Ekaterinburg by noon?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #87 on: July 13, 2004, 03:04:44 PM »
AGRBear...


"Certain things could not have happened?'

What do you mean?  

R.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2004, 04:23:19 PM »
Did not mean to sound mysterious.  I just meant:  Could all of the events Yurovsky claimed he accomplished from the point they reached the mine until he was in Ekaterinburg at noon, which I assume is documented, been accomplished ???

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Abby

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2004, 04:43:38 PM »
2 Fiats

1. 1916


2. Undated

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Abby »