The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson

[Forum Admin]

Sarah,

Please make certain that the authors don't have an objection to your reproduction of the entire page of the text. I don't want to infringe on any copyrights.  Thanks.

FA

[Sarushka]

Sarah,

Please make certain that the authors don't have an objection to your reproduction of the entire page of the text. I don't want to infringe on any copyrights.  Thanks.

FA

I will do that immediately. If they have objections, I will delete the image from my photobucket account which should break the link.

[Sarushka]

Actually I've corrected my post while you were typing your last post, they didn't exactly say that Volkov stated that they were "not left in peace" but that they "refused to leave them in peace" which amounts to the same thing, except they didn't include the word "refuse" in the quote.

I hope you'll forgive my pickiness, but this is still not an accurate quote from FOTR. The wording is different, and the quotation marks setting off Volkov's words are missing:

'....refusing, as Volkov later learned, to "leave them in peace".'

I realize you were working quickly to correct your post, but I wouldn't want to have other posters inadvertantly copy the mistake and misrepresent the text in their arguments. Particularly when the discussion itself revolves around the accuracy of quotations.

[Puppylove]

So if I'm following this train of thought correctly, the wording can leave one with the impression that a very specific, very narrow agenda is hinted at here, something Janet A. staunchly denies.

Could it be possible the writing and the editing are just not very good?

[Forum Admin]

Well, Sarah's reproduction of the page reveals another bad use of Volkov (poor Volkov, he seems to be the one subject to more abuse than the Grand Duchesses!).

Two paragraphs before the previous text discussed. They talk about how the bored and drunken soldiers fired shots off the boat and tossed grenades at the birds. THEN  "the boat slowly edged away from the Tobolsk wharf, churning a ribbon of white foam as it steamed across the dark water into the fire of the Siberian sunset. It was the beginning of what Volkov later termed "a savage orgy".

The clear meaning of the paragraph says that the passengers were locked up in the boat for hours before it left. The drunken and bored soldiers did their shooting and grenade tossing. THEN the Rus leaves and they say that Volkov calls the VOYAGE ITSELF "a savage orgy".



Here is what Volkov actually said. The boat left at two o'clock and steered in the direction of Tyumen. The conduct of the soldiers during the voyage was abominable. Absolutely no discipline. They fired gunshots and even threw grenades, without rhyme or reason, at birds, up in the air...It was a savage orgy.

Error of fact 1: The shooting and grenade tossing happened AFTER the boat left.
Error of fact 2: The Rus didn't steam off into the Siberian sunset. It left at 2pm.
Error of fact 3: Volkov did NOT call the voyage itself "a savage orgy".  That term was used to describe the lack of discipline of the soldiers up on deck.

[helenazar]

I hope you'll forgive my pickiness, but this is still not an accurate quote from FOTR. The wording is different, and the quotation marks setting off Volkov's words are missing:

'....refusing, as Volkov later learned, to "leave them in peace".'

I am not writing a thesis here, just making a point. What it comes down to is that Volkov was misquoted in what seems to be a deliberate and blatant manner.

[helenazar]

So if I'm following this train of thought correctly, the wording can leave one with the impression that a very specific, very narrow agenda is hinted at here, something Janet A. staunchly denies.

Yes, exactly.

Could it be possible the writing and the editing are just not very good?

Not sure about that. To me, there is no denial of what the authors are trying to convey there... and how the quotes are misused.

[helenazar]

Yeah, poor Volkov. Luckily for FOTR he was no longer alive to set things straight and unless the reader actually reads his memoirs in Russian or French, he or she would never know what he really said.

[helenazar]

The clear meaning of the paragraph says that the passengers were locked up in the boat for hours before it left. The drunken and bored soldiers did their shooting and grenade tossing. THEN the Rus leaves and they say that Volkov calls the VOYAGE ITSELF "a savage orgy".

Here is what Volkov actually said. The boat left at two o'clock and steered in the direction of Tyumen. The conduct of the soldiers during the voyage was abominable. Absolutely no discipline. They fired gunshots and even threw grenades, without rhyme or reason, at birds, up in the air...It was a savage orgy.

Error of fact 3: Volkov did NOT call the voyage itself "a savage orgy".  That term was used to describe the lack of discipline of the soldiers up on deck.

IMO, that quote was once again used to sensationalize the incident, in order to sell more books no doubt - I guess it was all still part of, what did Janet A call it? Oh yes, "stylistic demands of commercial publishing"...

[Annie]

Yeah, poor Volkov. Luckily for FOTR he was no longer alive to set things straight and unless the reader actually reads his memoirs in Russian or French, he or she would never know what he really said.

This is another reason it's so despicable- Using a dead man who cannot defend himself or correct the info as a backup for something that never really happened, but for some reasons,(AA's pregnancy? Sensationalism sells? Other?) the authors needed to say that it did. Looks like some very snazzy maneuvering had to have been done to change what was actually said by this man into what they intended for it to convey, and I cannot accept that as accidental or unintentional.

At this point, there really is no defense and denying it. The authors should really just apologize, and if they ever do a reprint, correct it. I'm sure if those things were done, this topic of discussion would finally be over.

[Puppylove]

The clear meaning of the paragraph says that the passengers were locked up in the boat for hours before it left. The drunken and bored soldiers did their shooting and grenade tossing. THEN the Rus leaves and they say that Volkov calls the VOYAGE ITSELF "a savage orgy".

Here is what Volkov actually said. The boat left at two o'clock and steered in the direction of Tyumen. The conduct of the soldiers during the voyage was abominable. Absolutely no discipline. They fired gunshots and even threw grenades, without rhyme or reason, at birds, up in the air...It was a savage orgy.

Error of fact 3: Volkov did NOT call the voyage itself "a savage orgy".  That term was used to describe the lack of discipline of the soldiers up on deck.

IMO, that quote was once again used to sensationalize the incident, in order to sell more books no doubt - I guess it was all still part of, what did Janet A call it? Oh yes, "stylistic demands of commercial publishing"...

But why not just do it carefully and correctly from the beginning? People aren't going to suddenly drop their copy of The Secret where they stand and pick up The Fate of the Romanovs instead.

[helenazar]

The authors should really just apologize, and if they ever do a reprint, correct it.

Very unlikely...

[Forum Admin]

But why not just do it carefully and correctly from the beginning?

THAT, to me is the question. Also, and I know its another  thread, is the heart of the Author's obligation (all authors of history non-fiction.)

[helenazar]

The clear meaning of the paragraph says that the passengers were locked up in the boat for hours before it left. The drunken and bored soldiers did their shooting and grenade tossing. THEN the Rus leaves and they say that Volkov calls the VOYAGE ITSELF "a savage orgy".

Here is what Volkov actually said. The boat left at two o'clock and steered in the direction of Tyumen. The conduct of the soldiers during the voyage was abominable. Absolutely no discipline. They fired gunshots and even threw grenades, without rhyme or reason, at birds, up in the air...It was a savage orgy.

Error of fact 3: Volkov did NOT call the voyage itself "a savage orgy".  That term was used to describe the lack of discipline of the soldiers up on deck.

IMO, that quote was once again used to sensationalize the incident, in order to sell more books no doubt - I guess it was all still part of, what did Janet A call it? Oh yes, "stylistic demands of commercial publishing"...

But why not just do it carefully and correctly from the beginning? People aren't going to suddenly drop their copy of The Secret where they stand and pick up The Fate of the Romanovs instead.

That's the part I could never understand. The book is heavily cited and sourced, and obviously a lot of research went into it (at least it looks that way), so why misquote, or as in some instances even invent, the sources? My speculation is that if FOTR had done that, it would just be another Romanov book with nothing new. By "creatively" misusing the sources, FOTR resulted as an innovative book with a lot of "new" information. I can understand why authors would want to publish a book like that, however to resort to what amounts to falsifying history is going a bit far...

[Janet Ashton]

Thanks Margarita for the original and the explainations. Since Volkov was Russian, that must be the way it was written and has to be exactly what he meant. So what we actually had was, ONE man putting Alexei and Nargorny locked up in a cabin, and leaving the Grand Duchesses alone (which may even have meant he did not lock them up) How in the world anyone can bring in a group of leering soldiers that never existed, and assuming their 'must' have been abuse going on in the night is ridiculous. There is nothing there but speculation elaborated on by imagination! Sorry but no editor's error could do that alone.

In addition, the theory that they could have been molested but nobody mentioned it because of their station is really, really, grasping at straws.

There never was any ambiguity in Volkov's words as they appear in the Russian and in the French languages. The text was never open to any other interpretation. 


Margarita  

The French text reads "ayant laisse en paix les Grandes Duchesses" - having left the Grand Duchesses in peace. You may or may not consider this to be the "definitive" text, but please do not accuse me of misrepresenting source material. I am writing from memory, but this is a point I checked with some attention the first (?) time you people went round this in 2006.