Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 289210 times)

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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #645 on: March 02, 2008, 03:43:41 PM »

That's true, the saddest part about stories being distorted for an agenda is that real people's reps are involved.


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Offline Belochka

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #646 on: March 02, 2008, 05:31:47 PM »
Bear,

BOB is Bob Atchison. I'm ROB Moshein.

The French edition of Volkov reads "contre les oiseaux, en l'air... Ce fut une orgie sauvage."  The only possible translation to English of this is "at the birds, up in the air..It was a savage orgy."  I would be interested in Belochka's (or any other Russian speaker) translation of the original Russian text of this phrase.

Volkov wrote (at page 84):

«Во время пути солдаты вели себя крайне недисциплированно: стреляли с парахода птиц и просто - куда попало. Стреляли не только из ружей но и из пулеметов. Родионов ... » 

My translation:

"During the way soldiers behaved themselves extremely undisciplined: shot birds from the boat and simply - wherever (it) struck. Fired not only from handguns but from machine-guns. Rodionov ..."

(see my posting # 551 for the remainder of Volkov's recollection on board the Rus)


No orgy of any kind, no leering at the Grand Duchesses through open doors!

An explanation is needed as to why Volkov's personal recollections on board the Rus had been altered so drastically by other persons.

Margarita


I believe we know now that there is a fourth albeit "unwitting" factual error.  Here is the same sentence from the French edition of Volkov, at 126.
"Le conduite des soldats pendant le voyage fut abominable.  Aucune discipline.  Ils tiraient des coups de fusil et meme de mitrailleuse, sans rime ni raison, contre les oiseaux, en l'air...Ce fut une orgie sauvage."

Clearly then, the "it was a savage orgy" was NOT EVEN WRITTEN BY VOLKOV.  This must have been some "stylistic" embellishment by Semenov, the translator.  Therefore, any discussion based upon that phrase is meaningless as being remotely factual, since VOLKOV HIMSELF NEVER SAID IT.

As for the entire Bux. affair, it has been discussed quite completely here, we don't need to re hash the defamation of the woman's character all over again.
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,239.0.html


Sorry about that Rob and Bob.

So,  now,  we know  Moshein, King or Wilson did not deliberately change the wording because of some kind of agenda.  It was Semenov who added the extra dramatic line.

Thanks everyone for getting all of this worked through step by step.   

This just supports the reason why I try to follow up on the sources back to the original.  In this case,  I didn't have the original.

AGRBear

What this entire exercise has proven is that if people intend to research and then write about Russian history it is their obligation to go to the ORIGINAL source and not place reliance on any foreign translations.

Frankly to my mind it makes no sense that the authors failed to do just that considering other Russian sources were cited for other issues.

The onus was on the authors to tell the truth and now their final product relating to this matter is just plain wrong.

Margarita
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 05:36:02 PM by Belochka »


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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #647 on: March 03, 2008, 11:07:56 AM »
 I spent some time looking through a particular thread "Space Alien Intervention" which was created while I , Helen and Annie were having one of those heated discussions about AA or something.  The thread was meant to be light hearted and a little off key.  I ran across this and thought I'd share:


Quote
Sarahusha's #242 post:
Well, if we're going to get silly!

May I present...drum roll...

Super Ted, the ULTIMATE Romanov authority


I can hardly see my keyboard through my tears of  laughter.

AGRBear


Thanks Sarsuhka for the laugh that day and, again, this morning.


AGRBear

PS  I know a lot more about the Romanovs than I did then, but,  not as much you and other posters who continue to add to our knowledge.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 11:10:34 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #648 on: March 03, 2008, 12:06:47 PM »
I wanted to bring up one more issue which I forgot about until now.

According to most historians, Yakov Yurovsky was born into a Jewish family (as Yankel Yurovsky) and later on in life converted to Lutheranism and then perhaps to Russian Orthodoxy. FOTR, on the other hand, claims something completely different, and I was wondering if anyone knows what the basis for this claim is. The authors state that Yurovsky was born Russian Orthodox, all his family was Russian Orthodox, and they even go as far as to say that they were in fact strong anti-semites. This version of Yurovsky's background is completely different from anything I ever read anywhere else, so I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about it?

We had a long discussion about this subject about two years ago and it turned out to be a very interesting one, unfortunately the FA was forced to delete the entire thread... So I would like to discuss this again. 

Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #649 on: March 03, 2008, 01:14:05 PM »
I wanted to bring up one more issue which I forgot about until now.

According to most historians, Yakov Yurovsky was born into a Jewish family (as Yankel Yurovsky) and later on in life converted to Lutheranism and then perhaps to Russian Orthodoxy. FOTR, on the other hand, claims something completely different, and I was wondering if anyone knows what the basis for this claim is. The authors state that Yurovsky was born Russian Orthodox, all his family was Russian Orthodox, and they even go as far as to say that they were in fact strong anti-semites. This version of Yurovsky's background is completely different from anything I ever read anywhere else, so I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about it?

We had a long discussion about this subject about two years ago and it turned out to be a very interesting one, unfortunately the FA was forced to delete the entire thread... So I would like to discuss this again. 

I would like to discuss this as well. What do the sources say? Would the emphasis on Orthodoxy somehow make Yurovsky seem more palatable to some readers? Or does it make the execution seem even more horrific?

helenazar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #650 on: March 03, 2008, 01:17:39 PM »
What do the sources say? Would the emphasis on Orthodoxy somehow make Yurovsky seem more palatable to some readers?

I am not sure what the angle was, but I do have the entire thread saved in my archives somewhere, let me see what I can dig up...

helenazar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #651 on: March 03, 2008, 01:20:52 PM »
Frankly to my mind it makes no sense that the authors failed to do just that considering other Russian sources were cited for other issues.

I don't think either of the authors went to the Russian archives to research this, but relied on other people...

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #652 on: March 03, 2008, 04:40:43 PM »
I think Yurovsky's  religious background needs it's own thread even if some of this information is found in THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS? 

We will find, again,  information in other books, articles, etc. from other sources as well,  I assume.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #653 on: March 03, 2008, 05:39:13 PM »
Helen, you brought up the topic, how should we proceed?

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #654 on: March 03, 2008, 06:06:07 PM »
I think Yurovsky's  religious background needs it's own thread even if some of this information is found in THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS? 

We will find, again,  information in other books, articles, etc. from other sources as well,  I assume.

AGRBear

Why should we start another thread, we discuss all other issues here, so why not Yurovsky? We can use other sources here too, I don't see why not.  ::)

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #655 on: March 03, 2008, 06:39:00 PM »
Helen,

You may proceed here, but if the Yursovsky being Jewish thread becomes too big, I'll have to move it off as a new topic.  In that event, you can post a "recap" of the evidence here in the FOTR AS IT PERTAINS TO THE FOTR text.  It WAS an interesting discussion, until, well...you remember... Let's us all try very hard to keep it civil and on topic this time, please.

helenazar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #656 on: March 03, 2008, 06:39:58 PM »
Helen,

You may proceed here, but if the Yursovsky being Jewish thread becomes too big, I'll have to move it off as a new topic.  In that event, you can post a "recap" of the evidence here in the FOTR AS IT PERTAINS TO THE FOTR text.  It WAS an interesting discussion, until, well...you remember... Let's us all try very hard to keep it civil and on topic this time, please.

Ok, no problem.

helenazar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #657 on: March 04, 2008, 12:27:24 PM »
Sokolov wrote the following about Yurovsky,  (Rob's translation from the French
edition of his "Report"):

"The Jew Jacob Mikhailovich Yurovsky was born in 1878. Clockmaker by profession and photographer..."(Sokolov then states the took depositions of his mother Esther Moisseiva Yurovskaya, and his brothers Eli Meyer, and Leyba Yurovsky).

"Jacob Yurovsky's grandfather lived in the Poltava Government, his son Chaim, Jacob's father, had earlier been convicted for carrying a loaded firearm and sentenced to permanent exile in Siberia. ...  According to the birth certificate written by the Rabbi of Tomsk on May 23 1905 and given to me by Layba Yurovsky, Chaim Yurovsky was entered into the society of the Bourgeois in Kainsk, Siberia.


"Jacob, according to the depositions of his mother and brothers, entered into the Jewish School "Talmateyro" in Tomsk, which was next to the Synagogue. He did not do well in school and was apprenticed to the Jewish clockmaker Perman, in Tomsk." ... "In 1905, for an unknown reason, he left for abroad, and lived for a year in Berlin. There he abandoned the faith of his fathers and became a Lutheran."

pp. 174-175 "Enquete Judiciare sur l'Assassinat..."

This is all more or less consistent with what I have always read about Yurovsky.

On the other hand...

FOTR, pp. 251-52: "...Yakov Mikhailovich Yurovsky was born on June 19, 1878, in the Siberian city of Tomsk, the eight of ten children born to Mikhail Ilyich Yurovsky and his wife. The Yurovsky family was solidly working class, with bourgeois values and traditional dedication to home life; to the church; and, especially, to the Romanov dynasty. .... Michael Yurovsky, as his son recalled, was deeply religious. He later wrote of his father's 'religious fanaticism... On holidays and regular days the children were forced to pray... my first active protest was against religion and nationalistic traditions'..."

P. 582 (notes) "Great mystery surrounds the Yurovsky family's ethnic origin. Most authorities have concluded that they were Jewish. This clearly suited the interests of the majority of the Whites and monarchists, who believed that Jews - Russia's traditional scapegoats - were all Bolsheviks; in time, like so many other elements of Romanov case, this assertion became accepted as fact, repeated endlessly from book to book. Thus Robert Wilton spoke of 'Yankel Yurovsky, the son of a Jew convict' (Wilton and Telberg, 299). The deliberate alteration of Yurovsky's Christian name from Yakov to Jewish Yankel, indicates both Wilton's own anti-Semitism and his tendency to fabricate information to suit his own ends. Unfortunately
such assertions continue to cloud the issue"


P. 583:

"... With anti-Semitism rampant among the White Army, it is not surprising that the ethnic origin of the family should have loomed large in their interrogations. Then too, we know from multiple source material and evidence available that conscious attempts were made by the Whites to indeed link the Jews to the murders in Ekaterinburg. Given these conditions, there are solid reasons for questioning the content of Leonti Yurovsky's testimony. On the identification of his grandfather as a Jewish rabbi, we find very serious doubts. The
Yurovsky family itself was Russian Orthodox, not Jewish; Yurovsky himself seethed with a fair amount of anti-Semitism in his youth - something inbred into a majority of ethnic Russians and often encouraged by the church itself...."
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 12:29:37 PM by Helen_A »

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #658 on: March 04, 2008, 01:57:31 PM »
May I also add from Gilliard (another first hand witness, working with Sokolov) from "Thirteen Years at the Russian Court" ch. XXII:
On this day (July 4)Avdiev and his adjutant Mochkin were arrested and replaced by Commissary Yurovsky, a Jew, and his subordinate Nikulin. The guard formed - as has already been mentioned exclusively of Russian workmen, was transferred to a neighboring house, that of Popov.

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #659 on: March 04, 2008, 02:54:50 PM »
Sokolov wrote the following about Yurovsky,  (Rob's translation from the French
edition of his "Report"):

"The Jew Jacob Mikhailovich Yurovsky was born in 1878. Clockmaker by profession and photographer..."(Sokolov then states the took depositions of his mother Esther Moisseiva Yurovskaya, and his brothers Eli Meyer, and Leyba Yurovsky).

"Jacob Yurovsky's grandfather lived in the Poltava Government, his son Chaim, Jacob's father, had earlier been convicted for carrying a loaded firearm and sentenced to permanent exile in Siberia. ...  According to the birth certificate written by the Rabbi of Tomsk on May 23 1905 and given to me by Layba Yurovsky, Chaim Yurovsky was entered into the society of the Bourgeois in Kainsk, Siberia.


"Jacob, according to the depositions of his mother and brothers, entered into the Jewish School "Talmateyro" in Tomsk, which was next to the Synagogue. He did not do well in school and was apprenticed to the Jewish clockmaker Perman, in Tomsk." ... "In 1905, for an unknown reason, he left for abroad, and lived for a year in Berlin. There he abandoned the faith of his fathers and became a Lutheran."

pp. 174-175 "Enquete Judiciare sur l'Assassinat..."

This is all more or less consistent with what I have always read about Yurovsky.

On the other hand...

FOTR, pp. 251-52: "...Yakov Mikhailovich Yurovsky was born on June 19, 1878, in the Siberian city of Tomsk, the eight of ten children born to Mikhail Ilyich Yurovsky and his wife. The Yurovsky family was solidly working class, with bourgeois values and traditional dedication to home life; to the church; and, especially, to the Romanov dynasty. .... Michael Yurovsky, as his son recalled, was deeply religious. He later wrote of his father's 'religious fanaticism... On holidays and regular days the children were forced to pray... my first active protest was against religion and nationalistic traditions'..."

P. 582 (notes) "Great mystery surrounds the Yurovsky family's ethnic origin. Most authorities have concluded that they were Jewish. This clearly suited the interests of the majority of the Whites and monarchists, who believed that Jews - Russia's traditional scapegoats - were all Bolsheviks; in time, like so many other elements of Romanov case, this assertion became accepted as fact, repeated endlessly from book to book. Thus Robert Wilton spoke of 'Yankel Yurovsky, the son of a Jew convict' (Wilton and Telberg, 299). The deliberate alteration of Yurovsky's Christian name from Yakov to Jewish Yankel, indicates both Wilton's own anti-Semitism and his tendency to fabricate information to suit his own ends. Unfortunately
such assertions continue to cloud the issue"


P. 583:

"... With anti-Semitism rampant among the White Army, it is not surprising that the ethnic origin of the family should have loomed large in their interrogations. Then too, we know from multiple source material and evidence available that conscious attempts were made by the Whites to indeed link the Jews to the murders in Ekaterinburg. Given these conditions, there are solid reasons for questioning the content of Leonti Yurovsky's testimony. On the identification of his grandfather as a Jewish rabbi, we find very serious doubts. The
Yurovsky family itself was Russian Orthodox, not Jewish; Yurovsky himself seethed with a fair amount of anti-Semitism in his youth - something inbred into a majority of ethnic Russians and often encouraged by the church itself...."


I am not sure what the problem is here?
The source of the infomration about Yurovsky's religious practices as a child (and his anti-Semitic prejudices) is his correspondence and his own 1922 note, as the source note in FOTR states. Penny's translation of the latter is also up on the internet at http://www.kingandwilson.com/FOTRresources/yurovsky1922.htm

e.g.: "Once I had to take lunch to my father and passed a group of Jews on their way to their synagogue. And then I asked my mother, “How is it that Jews have all the money, and can close their shops to go to Synagogue on Friday, when others have to work? Why are they allowed to decide when it is forbidden to work, when the rest of us have to do so?”  " and "In Tomsk, the owner of a guesthouse, a Jew, brought the Heir into the city in a fast troika. We thought that that the Heir should not have been subjected to pernicious Jewish influence as he would have to talk to him in the troika. A rumor came about that the Heir had lunch with this Jew-this all had a great meaning in that particular moment in his travels. "

Yurovsky himself states that in Germany he converted to Lutheranism, so no dispute about that.

The lengthy footnote on pages 582-3 of FOTR discusses the interrogation of his family by Whites, giving details of the circumstances, which included beating and torture, throwing doubt on any testimony extracted under those conditions, particularly given the interest of the Whites in "proving" that the Romanovs were a blood sacrifice.

HOWEVER, FOTR does not state categorically that Yurovsky's family origins were not ethnically Jewish, given the conflicting tetsimony. "Perhaps he was Jewish, though he was certainly raised in the Russian Orthodox Church. His racial origin played no part in the role he enacted in the Romaonv drama." - again, from the footnote on page 583 (which Dr Slater admires in "The many deaths of Nicholas II"; good for her)

« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 03:09:26 PM by Janet Ashton »
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.