Author Topic: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson  (Read 262758 times)

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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #660 on: March 04, 2008, 03:01:09 PM »
May I also add from Gilliard (another first hand witness, working with Sokolov) from "Thirteen Years at the Russian Court" ch. XXII:
On this day (July 4)Avdiev and his adjutant Mochkin were arrested and replaced by Commissary Yurovsky, a Jew, and his subordinate Nikulin. The guard formed - as has already been mentioned exclusively of Russian workmen, was transferred to a neighboring house, that of Popov.

There's no dispute that Yurovsky was Lutheran at this time, so on what basis did Gilliard make this statement? Did he write it later, after working with Sokolov? Or is it an assumption about Y's origins, based on his appearance?

Either way, it isn't to me independent evidence of anything.

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #661 on: March 04, 2008, 03:11:35 PM »
HOWEVER, FOTR does not state categorically that Yurovsky's family origins were not ethnically Jewish, given the conflicting tetsimony.

It would be very strange if this were the case in light of his alleged statements: "Once I had to take lunch to my father and passed a group of Jews on their way to their synagogue. And then I asked my mother, “How is it that Jews have all the money, and can close their shops to go to Synagogue on Friday, when others have to work? Why are they allowed to decide when it is forbidden to work, when the rest of us have to do so?”  Whenever I asked these questions, Mother would answer, “Because God wills it.”

Not once would the mother mention "Well Yakov, we were once Jews too"?


The source of the infomration about Yurovsky's religious practices as a child (and his anti-Semitic prejudices) is his own 1922 note, as the source note in FOTR states. Penny's translation is also up on the internet at http://www.kingandwilson.com/FOTRresources/yurovsky1922.htm

Is this 1922 note available in the original Russian text? I would like to see what it says exactly, since we all know how things often "get lost in translation"... Is it possible that Yurovsky may have said something like "how come other Jews can afford to close up their shops on Friday while we have to work?", and the mother would say, "because God wills it", which would imply that they were Jewish too, but not rich like other Jews. The authors may have mistranslated it and hence concluded that Yurovsky's family was rabidly Orthodox as well as anti-semitic...  It would all make a lot more sense if this were the case, including the above statement by Yurovsky about Jews...

This is why I would like to see the original 1922 note, since it is the only source which claims the opposite of what everyone else does... If the original source is not available for the reader to see, then it would be difficult for me to accept it face value, especially in light of FOTR's track record with sources...

« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 03:28:41 PM by Helen_A »

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #662 on: March 04, 2008, 03:30:35 PM »
HOWEVER, FOTR does not state categorically that Yurovsky's family origins were not ethnically Jewish, given the conflicting tetsimony.

It would be very strange if this were the case in light of his alleged statements: "Once I had to take lunch to my father and passed a group of Jews on their way to their synagogue. And then I asked my mother, “How is it that Jews have all the money, and can close their shops to go to Synagogue on Friday, when others have to work? Why are they allowed to decide when it is forbidden to work, when the rest of us have to do so?”  Whenever I asked these questions, Mother would answer, “Because God wills it.”

Not once would the mother mention "Well Yakov, we were once Jews too"?

If she converted to evade prejudice and was in denial, then presumably she wouldn't.
However, you should also consider the possibility that Yurovsky's PATERNAL origins were indeed Jewish and his  father married a Christian woman - which would make the children Christian.


The source of the infomration about Yurovsky's religious practices as a child (and his anti-Semitic prejudices) is his own 1922 note, as the source note in FOTR states. Penny's translation is also up on the internet at http://www.kingandwilson.com/FOTRresources/yurovsky1922.htm

Is this 1922 note available in the original Russian text? I would like to see what it says exactly, since we all know how things often "get lost in translation"... Is it possible that Yurovsky may have said something like "how come other Jews can afford to close up their shops on Friday while we have to work?", which would imply that they were Jewish too, but not rich like other Jews - but the authors may have misread it and concluded that Yurovsky's family was rabidly Orthodox as well as anti-semitic...  Things would all make a lot more sense if this were the case, incluidng the above statement by Yurovsky about Jews... This is why I would like to see the original 1922 note, since it is the only source which claims the opposite of what everyone else does... if this source is not available for the reader to see, then it would be difficult for me to accept it face value, especially because of FOTR's track record with sources...



Yawn. Please do the research before making that assumption. Yes, I believe the 1922 note has been published (or perhaps it's the 1920 note), but you will have to find it.....I am not trying to be deliberately unhelpful (though frankly given the tenor of your remark above I feel I have the right to be); I do believe however that it's not that hard to track down using the usual research skills.
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #663 on: March 04, 2008, 03:38:14 PM »
[There's no dispute that Yurovsky was Lutheran at this time, so on what basis did Gilliard make this statement?

The basis would have been that Yurovsky was born Jewish, even if he did later convert to Lutheranism. I am not saying that some Whites would not have tried to use this fact against all Jews and turn the murder of the IF into a ritualistic killing, but at the same time, if he was indeed Jewish not Russian Orthodox it is still a historical fact that we don't want to play around with.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #664 on: March 04, 2008, 03:43:58 PM »
However, you should also consider the possibility that Yurovsky's PATERNAL origins were indeed Jewish and his  father married a Christian woman - which would make the children Christian.

With a name like Esther Moisseivna? Come on, you're grabbing at straws here... If they were really trying to deny their Jewish origins, would they have kept those names? Or are you saying that Sokolov made them up?


Yawn. Please do the research before making that assumption. I believe the 1922 note has been published (or perhaps it's the 1920 note), but you will have to find it.....

That's what I would like to do, which is why I would like to see the 1922 note where Yurovsky allegedly makes these statements... The 1920 Yurovsky note is easily available and has been published.  But of course the 1922 note where these alleged statements come from has not been published and is not easily available. What a surprise! Does Penny Wilson have a copy of this note in Russian? Not that I would expect her to produce it or anything silly like that...
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 03:51:28 PM by Helen_A »

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #665 on: March 04, 2008, 05:13:53 PM »
However, you should also consider the possibility that Yurovsky's PATERNAL origins were indeed Jewish and his  father married a Christian woman - which would make the children Christian.

With a name like Esther Moisseivna? Come on, you're grabbing at straws here... If they were really trying to deny their Jewish origins, would they have kept those names? Or are you saying that Sokolov made them up?


Yawn. Please do the research before making that assumption. I believe the 1922 note has been published (or perhaps it's the 1920 note), but you will have to find it.....

That's what I would like to do, which is why I would like to see the 1922 note where Yurovsky allegedly makes these statements... The 1920 Yurovsky note is easily available and has been published.  But of course the 1922 note where these alleged statements come from has not been published and is not easily available. What a surprise! Does Penny Wilson have a copy of this note in Russian? Not that I would expect her to produce it or anything silly like that...


You are incorrect. The 1922 note has been published (in Russian) and is available. Rather than wait around jeering for Penny, why not go search it out yourself?
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #666 on: March 04, 2008, 05:24:29 PM »
You are incorrect. The 1922 note has been published (in Russian) and is available. Rather than wait around jeering for Penny, why not go search it out yourself?

Where was it published? Just because you say something was published, doesn't mean it is so unless we can have access to it... As far as I can tell this is an unpublished memoir, I belive even the FOTR citation says so. But if you can point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it as I would love to see the original Russian text.

Here is another very telling passage from Sokolovsky's statement:

"Leah, the wife of Yurovsky's brother Eli testified: Jacob, my husband's brother, was certainly someone I knew well. We were never close; he had abandoned Judaism for Lutheranism, and I am an observant Jew. I did not like him. He was never very kindly toward me."   "He had abandoned Judaism" tells us that he was first a Jew and then converted to Lutheranism, most likely as an adult...

Basically what we have here is a primary source, statements of someone who interviewed the Yurovsky family first-hand, which have been published and to which everyone has access if they want to check. Unsure if this is the case with the 1922 Yurovsky memoir (remains to be seen)... 

Here is what I learned about the 1922 memoir the last time I looked into it:  This memoir is kept in the APRF (Archive Presidential Russian Federation).  Also known as "Fort Knox". It sounds like these archives are very difficult to access and are not open to regular researchers. 

http://www.iisg.nl/%7Eabb/abb_c1.html

Access to APRF

Virtually the entire archive is still classified as top secret and remains inaccessible to ordinary researchers. Declassification is being handled by a special commission appointed by the President of the Russian Federation. The archive has been practicing confidential access to original materials in the historical part of the archive for a highly limited number of selected researchers. Access or delivery of copies is dependent on permission of the Director of the Administration of the President of the RF (Rukovoditel' Administratsii Prezidenta RF), who should be addressed in writing with specific requests.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 05:37:47 PM by Helen_A »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #667 on: March 04, 2008, 06:50:23 PM »
Yes, Sokolov, Wilton and especially Gen. Ditirickhs plus the majority of the Whites were anti-Jewish.  They were  capable of  spreading misinformation about their enemy,  just as the Reds did about the Whites.  For example,  in those first hours, weeks and months, the Whites made claims that the Jews had killed Nicholas II after he was made to watch as the Jews raped Alexandra  and his children.  The Reds broadcasted that the "Letts", not Russians,  executed Nicholas II.

Some of the anti-Jewish remarks both Sokolov, Wilston and Ditirickhs would make your ears burn.

Here is what Wilton wrote about the execution of Nicholas II:

>>...it is the Jewish organizations in this and other countries that have emphasised this aspect of the Soviet crimes by their persistent attempts to prove that no Jews took part in them.<<

p. 391
THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS by George Gustav Telberg and Robert Wilton.

Over and over Wilton talks about the:

>>..Jewish domination in Russia is supported by certain Russians:  the "burges" Ulianov alias Lenin, the "noble" Chicherin, the "dissenter" Bonch-Bruevich.  They are all mere screens or dummies behind which the Sverdlovs and the thousand and one Jews of Sobdepia continue their work of destruction; having wrecked and plundered Russia by appealing to the igrnorance of the working folk, they  are now using their dupes to set up a new tyranny worse than any that the world has known.<<

p. 393

Back to page 321

It does appear that he does know there were some "good" Jews and that he has  >>no intentions here to ascribe the murder of the Romanovs to a race vendetta...<<

Just a couple of paragraphs above this he had just written:

>>Taken according to numbers of population, the Jews represented one in ten; among the komisars [sic] that rule Bolshevist [sic] Russia they are nine in ten -- if anything, the proportion of Jews is still greater.<<

A person really has to be careful when sorting through this time period.   So, let's gather as much information as we can before we start making assumptions or conclusions.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 07:00:40 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #668 on: March 04, 2008, 06:56:06 PM »
This has nothing to do with Yurovsky being or not being Jewish.

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #669 on: March 04, 2008, 07:03:48 PM »
HOWEVER, FOTR does not state categorically that Yurovsky's family origins were not ethnically Jewish, given the conflicting tetsimony.

It would be very strange if this were the case in light of his alleged statements: "Once I had to take lunch to my father and passed a group of Jews on their way to their synagogue. And then I asked my mother, “How is it that Jews have all the money, and can close their shops to go to Synagogue on Friday, when others have to work? Why are they allowed to decide when it is forbidden to work, when the rest of us have to do so?”  Whenever I asked these questions, Mother would answer, “Because God wills it.”

Not once would the mother mention "Well Yakov, we were once Jews too"?


The source of the infomration about Yurovsky's religious practices as a child (and his anti-Semitic prejudices) is his own 1922 note, as the source note in FOTR states. Penny's translation is also up on the internet at http://www.kingandwilson.com/FOTRresources/yurovsky1922.htm

Is this 1922 note available in the original Russian text? I would like to see what it says exactly, since we all know how things often "get lost in translation"... Is it possible that Yurovsky may have said something like "how come other Jews can afford to close up their shops on Friday while we have to work?", and the mother would say, "because God wills it", which would imply that they were Jewish too, but not rich like other Jews. The authors may have mistranslated it and hence concluded that Yurovsky's family was rabidly Orthodox as well as anti-semitic...  It would all make a lot more sense if this were the case, including the above statement by Yurovsky about Jews...

This is why I would like to see the original 1922 note, since it is the only source which claims the opposite of what everyone else does... If the original source is not available for the reader to see, then it would be difficult for me to accept it face value, especially in light of FOTR's track record with sources...



Helen is "speculating" and does not know any of this as fact.

I truly wish Helen that you could keep your personal dislike for Penny Wilson on a side rail.  As for doubting the information you've found in FATE OF THE ROMANOVS,  you are, again,  making assumptions without proof. 


AGRBear
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 07:19:38 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #670 on: March 04, 2008, 07:28:04 PM »
This has nothing to do with Yurovsky being or not being Jewish.

But it does,  if the interviewers wanted everyone to believe the Jews were behind the execution of Nicholas II.

Helen wrote this note Post #647 which she found in FATE OF THE ROMANOV, and, repeated here, therefore,  I see no reason not to explore this, too:
FOTR:
Quote
P. 582 (notes) "Great mystery surrounds the Yurovsky family's ethnic origin. Most authorities have concluded that they were Jewish. This clearly suited the interests of the majority of the Whites and monarchists, who believed that Jews - Russia's traditional scapegoats - were all Bolsheviks; in time, like so many other elements of Romanov case, this assertion became accepted as fact, repeated endlessly from book to book. Thus Robert Wilton spoke of 'Yankel Yurovsky, the son of a Jew convict' (Wilton and Telberg, 299). The deliberate alteration of Yurovsky's Christian name from Yakov to Jewish Yankel, indicates both Wilton's own anti-Semitism and his tendency to fabricate i

I don't know enough to have an opinion, yet. 

So, what else do you have which tells us Yurovsky was Jewish until he became a Lutheran in 1905 in Germany?


AGRBear
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 07:41:45 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Puppylove

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #671 on: March 04, 2008, 07:39:10 PM »

Helen is "speculating" and does not know any of this as fact.

AGRBear

Helen has made a valid inquiry and an open request for assistance in locating answers to her questions. The FOTR authors seem to respect your scholarly approach Bear, would they be willing to share it with you? Then you could enlighten the rest of us and the speculation would be over.

Thanks, Jenn
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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #672 on: March 04, 2008, 07:45:36 PM »
So, what else do you have which tells us Yurovsky was Jewish until he became a Lutherans in 1905 in Germany?


This always confuses me and seems to be dependent on the country in question. In Russia, does "Jewish" refer to one's ethnicity or one's religion? Do you retain Jewish ethnicity when converting to another religion? Or do you lose the right to be called Jewish once converted?

Thanks, Jenn
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #673 on: March 04, 2008, 08:45:18 PM »
Puppylove,  I  don't want to get in the middle of Helen and Annie vs King and Wilson. 

Besides, it's seems their conclusion is already in their book and has been answered on a thread which was eliminated and was on King and Wilson's forum, which they no longer have time to monitor, so it's been taken off the internet.

And, yes,  Helen's inquiry is understandable since most books do claim Yurovsky is Jewish.  But it seems to me that this is similar to the
"savage orgy"  subject we just discussed.  Words in books get repeated and repeated until they take up a life of their own and start to give the appearance of being fact when it isn't.

No,  I haven't seen the original,  so, I have two choices to make:
(1)  Believe King and Wilson's statements in their book
or
(2)  Don't believe King and Wilson's statements in their book

Since most historians accept King and Wilson's FATE OF THE ROMANOVS,  at this time, I have no reason to doubt this particular entry since Yurovsky wrote it and it exists in the archives .  Surly,  King and Wilson realized that someday this information may go public so why would they take a chance and give us something that wasn't there to read?

Unlike the Whites, who were in fact blaming the Jews for the execution of Nicholas II,  I don't think it matters to King and Wilson what religion Yurovsky was or was not.

AGRBear
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Re: The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson
« Reply #674 on: March 04, 2008, 09:01:55 PM »
So, what else do you have which tells us Yurovsky was Jewish until he became a Lutherans in 1905 in Germany?


This always confuses me and seems to be dependent on the country in question. In Russia, does "Jewish" refer to one's ethnicity or one's religion? Do you retain Jewish ethnicity when converting to another religion? Or do you lose the right to be called Jewish once converted?

Thanks, Jenn

I've never seen Yurovsky's unpublished memoirs, nor have I seen Yurovsky birth or baptismal record, so, I can't prove Yurovsky was Jewish or Russian Orthodox. 

The only thing everyone seems to agree is that Yurovsky converted to being a Lutheran in 1905 in Germany.

If Yurovsky's grandfather or father converted to Russian Orthodox, and Yurovsky attended this church, then he was technically a member of the Russian Orthodox before he converted to the Lutheran religion in 1905.  However, this doesn't mean that the Russians around this family accepted them as one of them.  Some people might have viewed them as "those Jews"  even though they no longer practiced Judaism.

I believe that in the Jewish religion that this heritage is passed down through the mother.  If Yurovsky's mother was Jewish then the Jewish community might have viewed Yurovsky as Jewish.

According to King and Wilson,  Yurovsky, in his  unpublished memoirs, claimed he was raised as a Russian Orthodox.

Helen doesn't think Yurovsky was Russian Orthodox since most books claim he was Jewish. 

Therein lies the problem.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 09:11:25 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152