The Fate of The Romanovs,Greg King,Penny Wilson

[Forum Admin]

In Imperial Russia "Jewish" was an ethnicity.  One's passport said "Jewish" just as others said "Russian" "Polish" "Latvian" Lithuanian, etc.

ummm Bear Just exactly WHO are all these "majority of historians" who accept FOTR at this time. A list of specific names and where they have publicly stated their "acceptance" of the book, please.

[Puppylove]

Puppylove,  I  don't want to get in the middle of Helen and Annie vs King and Wilson. 

Besides, it's seems their conclusion is already in their book and has been answered on a thread which was eliminated and was on King and Wilson's forum, which they no longer have time to monitor, so it's been taken off the internet.

AGRBear

I respect that; I just thought it was worth a shot because you've fostered such a positive relationship with the authors. I'm sure if there's another way, Helen will find it; she seems pretty tenacious when she wants to cut through obfuscation.

[Janet Ashton]

Puppylove,  I  don't want to get in the middle of Helen and Annie vs King and Wilson. 

Besides, it's seems their conclusion is already in their book and has been answered on a thread which was eliminated and was on King and Wilson's forum, which they no longer have time to monitor, so it's been taken off the internet.

AGRBear

I respect that; I just thought it was worth a shot because you've fostered such a positive relationship with the authors. I'm sure if there's another way, Helen will find it; she seems pretty tenacious when she wants to cut through obfuscation.

I'm sorry (genuinely - I am not being snide! :-) ) if you think my response is obfuscating. I should probably clarify that I don't have any problem answering genuine requests for assistance, when they don't come accompanied with remarks about "track record with sources,"  allusions to mistranslation, and such interpositions as "not available - what a surprise!" directed against the person who to me has been the single most important friendship of my adult life and the most significent source of encouragement and support as a historian, as well as against his friend and colleague and co-author, with whom Helen has obvious personal issues she can't let go of. Nor will I be needled into posting replies with comments like "just because you say it's so doesn't make it so," which draws my own credibility into the mix, though it doesn't bother me at all; it is pretty silly and just makes me impatient. Nor do I have any issue with people wanting to see sources for themselves rather than trust others interpretation - I do it all the time myself, and my desire and ability to do so was the original basis of my friendhsip with Greg. But can it not be done without the incessant barage of comment about others credibility?

You're right: Helen is a librarian and has done research; it should not be too hard for her to find this material for herself, whether or not it was published before FOTR came out. The publication is not obscure to people familiar with Russian language sources for historical research.

Anyway....

[Annie]

You're right: Helen is a librarian and has done research; it should not be too hard for her to find this material for herself, whether or not it was published before FOTR came out. The publication is not obscure to people familiar with Russian language sources for historical research.

Helen has also been to Russia and speaks and can translate Russian.That's another big advantage in her research. (as well as scientific knowledge on DNA) (Same with Belochka) This gives them an advantage that most average readers wouldn't have, and it's why they are able to find things that others wouldn't notice. The main goal is truth and accuracy in history. If I had written a book and had made a mistake, I would appreciate knowledgeable people pointing it out. If I had intentionally misquoted something thinking no one would ever find out, then I'd be open to whatever criticism may come. I think it's sad that people would rather cover up errors and let them go unchallenged in a 'nonfiction' book that people are supposed to trust just because they don't want to hear any more criticism of it, or because they like one or more of the authors. As I said before, if the author(s) would just admit the errors, apologize, and fix them if there's ever a reprint, this discussion would be over. Maybe those of you who are close to them can suggest this?

[Janet Ashton]

You're right: Helen is a librarian and has done research; it should not be too hard for her to find this material for herself, whether or not it was published before FOTR came out. The publication is not obscure to people familiar with Russian language sources for historical research.

Helen has also been to Russia and speaks and can translate Russian.That's another big advantage in her research. (as well as scientific knowledge on DNA) (Same with Belochka) This gives them an advantage that most average readers wouldn't have, and it's why they are able to find things that others wouldn't notice. The main goal is truth and accuracy in history. If I had written a book and had made a mistake, I would appreciate knowledgeable people pointing it out. If I had intentionally misquoted something thinking no one would ever find out, then I'd be open to whatever criticism may come. I think it's sad that people would rather cover up errors and let them go unchallenged in a 'nonfiction' book that people are supposed to trust just because they don't want to hear any more criticism of it, or because they like one or more of the authors. As I said before, if the author(s) would just admit the errors, apologize, and fix them if there's ever a reprint, this discussion would be over. Maybe those of you who are close to them can suggest this?

Annie, nobody has "intentionally misquoted" anything - that's an awful thing to say about someone who you told me you respect (Greg) - who, by the way, DOES appreciate people pointing things out and asking questions and challenging and gets many people reading his manuscripts for just that reason, as do all historians. And frankly I think he spent more than enough time he couldn't afford trying to explain to readers and deal with their queries over it all.

I think I'm done here, else I will caught up in going round and round the same points again and again.....:-)

[Annie]

Janet, as I told you, it was never Greg I had the issues with. He never got on this forum fighing with people. I enjoyed his previous work, (the Alexandra book and the Yussoupov book) and IMO teaming up with Penny and Kurth was not particularly the best career move he could have taken. Even if he does appreciate people pointing things out and challenging them, it is obvious from what we've all seen through the years that Penny does not. This has been a major issue. We don't know for certain what went on to cause the inaccuracies in the book, but the fact is they are there and need to be pointed out, challenged, addressed and hopefully corrected.

And frankly I think he spent more than enough time he couldn't afford trying to explain to readers and deal with their queries over it all.

But, we still don't have any real answers...

[helenazar]

You're right: Helen is a librarian and has done research; it should not be too hard for her to find this material for herself, whether or not it was published before FOTR came out. The publication is not obscure to people familiar with Russian language sources for historical research.

Well, as I stated earlier, I have done my research and it led me to the conclusion that the 1922 Yurovsky memoirs have not been published, and furthermore that they are located in a Russian archive which is virtually impossible to get to by ordinary researchers. You tell me otherwise, which is why I am asking you to point me to your source and where it can be found. All I want to do is read the original Russian text and make sure it hasn't been mistranslated. You refuse to do so, so it's just your word at this point and nothing else, which leaves me with my original conclusion that this memoir has not been published and was unlikely to have been seen by anyone in the West.

So once again, that leaves us with a specific source which FOTR claims states one thing - which no one can double check, and on the other hand sources which say the opposite which have been published and can be checked. I don't know how else you expect me to react to this, especially, as I said, more often than not the sources I have been able to check in the past turned out to be misquoted...

[helenazar]

ummm Bear Just exactly WHO are all these "majority of historians" who accept FOTR at this time. A list of specific names and where they have publicly stated their "acceptance" of the book, please.

Yes, please, I would like to know too...

[Puppylove]

Thanks once again for your responses, Janet. You very clearly stated your professional and personal respect for Greg King, and proven yourself an able spokesperson for him here, as has Bear. There's no point in having friends, professional or otherwise, if you won't stand up for them! My frustration with obfuscation is more general than anything because most history seems to have painted Yurovsky as Jewish villian, whereas FOTR colors at least his childhood in terms of intense Orthodoxy, and it's a contradiction I'm curious to see resolved. In fact, since APTM includes Yurovsky's biography on its main page, in the interest of accuracy, all agendas aside, it should be resolved.

Thanks, Jenn

[Janet Ashton]

There's no point in having friends, professional or otherwise, if you won't stand up for them!

Mainly "otherwise", actually; the professional stuff has been a remarkable bonus...:-)

[helenazar]

I think I'm done here...

Somehow I have a hard time believing that...

But I hope that before you go you can still point me to where I can find a copy of the Yurovsky 1992 memoir, which you insist has been published in Russian... Clearly I am not as good a researcher as I imagined myself to be, because I can't find it anywhere... But obviously at least one of the FOTR authors has the original Russian text - so to put this debate to rest, maybe you can use your connections to get a copy and post it here? As soon as I take a look at the Russian text and confirm that the translation was correct, I will let this  drop and we can move on... Thanks!  :-)

[Janet Ashton]

You're right: Helen is a librarian and has done research; it should not be too hard for her to find this material for herself, whether or not it was published before FOTR came out. The publication is not obscure to people familiar with Russian language sources for historical research.

Well, as I stated earlier, I have done my research and it led me to the conclusion that the 1922 Yurovsky memoirs have not been published, and furthermore that they are located in a Russian archive which is virtually impossible to get to by ordinary researchers. You tell me otherwise, which is why I am asking you to point me to your source and where it can be found. All I want to do is read the original Russian text and make sure it hasn't been mistranslated. You refuse to do so, so it's just your word at this point and nothing else, which leaves me with my original conclusion that this memoir has not been published and was unlikely to have been seen by anyone in the West.

In short, since your own research skills are not as good as you believe them to be, you attempt to elicit infomration from others by bullying them on a public forum. Perhaps if you spent more time on the former and less on the latter, you would have more luck.
Adieu...

[helenazar]

In short, since your own research skills are not as good as you believe them to be, you attempt to elicit infomration from others by bullying them on a public forum. Perhaps if you spent more time on the former and less on the latter, you would have more luck.
Adieu...

Ok, I am going to take that as this "published" source does not really exist, just as I suspected... I wanted to give you a chance to prove me wrong, but I guess that's not going happen. And going on the offensive and throwing tantrums doesn't really work with me, Janet, just ask Penny Wilson... Adieu indeed... 

[Annie]

Ok, I am going to take that as this "published" source does not really exist, just as I suspected... I wanted to give you a chance to prove me wrong, but I guess that's not going happen. And going on the offensive and throwing tantrums doesn't really work with me, Janet, just ask Penny Wilson... Adieu indeed... 

Some of us saw it all (before she deleted most of her posts) and that is exactly what happened. Penny did not like being questioned, and would give snide remarks or even rude comments instead of answers. When this happens, we can only assume that we were right and there is no answer, or surely she'd have given it instead of getting upset about being asked.

[Puppylove]

I find it interesting Yurovsky has gone through more religions than a Hollywood movie star.

One of the FOTR passages that gave me pause was Yurovsky's comment to Father Storozhov following the Romanov family's last service: "As the priest was leaving, Yurovsky pulled him aside and said, 'It is important that one must pray, and one must save one's soul.'" (p.256). I'd like to know if source notes indicate the tone of this statement: religiously respectful, cynical, or threatening. Just a point of curiosity for me as I try to get inside Yurovsky's mind.