Marie Feodorovna and her relationship with other relatives

[Louise]

While reading The Camera and the Tsars (FANTASTIC BOOK) I came across a picture of Christain X and his family. I began to ponder the relationship between the king and his Aunt Minnie, and the apparent animosity that arouse. What was the reason for the spat that went on between the two. Would you not think that the king would have enormous sympathy for an elderly woman who once was the Empress of Russia, and above all, a woman who suffered through the murder of her sons, and close relatives?

Since reading Nicholas and Alexandra, I have thought the man petty. Unless of course this is another "Romanov myth" that has lingered through the times.

Louise

[grandduchessella]

He does come off petty in the stories of his dealings with his aunt, but in his defense, I think she could probably be a difficult character. The Danish Court never had as much money as other courts--such a Russia--and I don't believe MF ever really came to terms with the fact that she didn't have unlimited resources anymore. I mean for roughly 50 years, money and comforts were of no concern for her and while AIII was a simple man, he spoiled his beloved wife. Christian X reflected more of the post-war belt-tightening that many royal courts underwent and was frugal to begin with and preferred simpler things, as did many Scandinavian monarchs (even to this day). Plus, I think it annoyed him that she sat on her jewels and expected her relatives to underwrite all her expenses, such as the pension given by George V and the home given by Christian X. While his mother Queen Louise brought a great fortune with her, she had a good number of children to divide it amongst . MF was pretty unconcerned with "petty" concerns such as money and in one famous story, when CX complained about the electric bills, she had every light in the palace turned on. It seems a basic clash of temperaments, lifestyles, personality, etc...escalated into a real feud.

[Martyn]

I think that Dagmar had  very well developed ideas as to what befitted an empress of Russia, "ex" and "dowager" notwithstanding.  I think that it is true that the days in which she and Alix used to make their own clothes and share a bedroom before they were married were but a dim and distant memory.
Let us not forget that she had been the first lady in the land in Russia, even after the death of AIII, since she had precedence over Alexandra and that was what she was used to.  Life had dealt her some very cruel blows and it must have been terribly important to her to try to salvage some dignity from the wreckage of Imperial Russia.
I can well imagine that Christian X and his petty economies must have been a source of irritation to her; we are talking about a woman who probably did not know that electricity had to be paid for.  I imagine that her nephew seldom passed up an opportunity to remind her of the "kindnesses" for which she was beholden to him and that this can not have been easy for her to bear.
I have always thought that there must have been problems with Christian; after all, upon Dagmar's death, her nephew George V ensured that her jewels were spirited out of Denmark before Christian could lay claim to them; what does that say about his intentions?

[Jackswife]

 Maybe George wanted them for May!   Seriously, maybe Christian had nothing more in mind than to sell the jewels and recoup some of the financial "burden" he'd incurred, taking care of Marie. That's just a speculation of mine, BTW. I'm sure the King's frugality was a constatnt source of irritation between him and Minnie, and perhaps he had good reason. I imagine it would be extremely difficult to go from being Empress of All the Russias to a mere "charity case" of one's nephew.

[Alexa]

Maybe George wanted them for May!

Funny I was thinking along similar lines.  I wouldn't put it past May to have been just waiting for MF to die, and then get George to have the jewels whisked off to England.

Alexa

[Martyn]

I think that May definitely had her eye on them!  A lot has been written about May's purchases of of Dagmar's jewels and I think that it is safe to say that she did pay fairly for the jewels that she obtained (however she did get the pick of the collection).
I think that George wanted to make sure that Xenia and Olga received the things that were rightfully theirs as MF's heirs; that May was a bit of a royal magpie no one would deny!

[Alexa]

...A lot has been written about May's purchases of of Dagmar's jewels and I think that it is safe to say that she did pay fairly for the jewels that she obtained....  

I had always heard that she wasn't fair at all with her price for the jewels and practically robbed the IF of their jewels.  I can't remember the name of the book, but my mom has a book about the royal jewels and I remember it saying May did not pay the IF market price.  In fact it was way below market, but the IF, not knowing anything about the value of their jewels and desperate for money, thought May was being generous.

Alexa

[Martyn]

There has been an awful lot of speculation about what May actually paid and what they were really worth.  The original estimate for the jewels was way over the top at something like £350,000; they were subsequently revalued at somewhere around £160,000.  An advance was made of £100,000 to Xenia and Olga against the sale of the jewels; some of the jewels were either withdrawn by Xenia from the sale for whatever reason and some remained unsold.
At any rate, It has been proven that May paid a fair price for the jewels, sometimes over the estimate, but it must also be said that the market for the sale of these jewels was depressed as a result of previous sales by other Romanovs and exiled Russian aristocrats.  Plus the Soviets had been disposing of jewellery and other artifacts during the 1920's - all these factors affected the value at that time of MF's collection.  Nowadays of course, those jewels would be utterly priceless, not because of their actual financial value, but because of their provenance and association.  It is a bit sad that having hung onto them in Kiev and the Crimea, when her life was endangered, that MF's last remants of imperial glory should be disposed of in this fashion.  I suppose the positive aspect of May buying them is that we all get to see them every time QE 2 wears them in public and just maybe they will remind us a little of Dagmar and how much those jewels meant to her.  I think that she would appreciate that they were still being worn by a reigning monarch, and by someone who was part of the same extended royal family.

[Alexa]

Thanks for the info on May and the jewels Martyn.  It's good to have that cleared up.

I too am happy I get to see the jewels on the Queen.  I never had realized how many peices May aquired until I saw all the pictures in that book at my mom's place.

Alexa

[Martyn]

May also acquired Miechen's pearl and diamond tiara, which the Queen has worn quite a lot over the years.  I think that this tiara is magnificent and I always think of Miechen when I see photos of the Queen wearing it.
I think that May did rather well out of the jewellery sales of the IF and other exiles; I don't think that she ripped anybody off per se but I do think that the market was depressed.
I wonder  what became of the jewellery that was returned to Xenia and whether any of it still belongs to her descendants?

[grandduchessella]

I always thought Mary got a bad rap here. She apparently paid above market price, though nowhere near what they were probably worth, but generosity only goes so far.   Plus, George V gave Xenia a free home until her death and an allowance to MF, Xenia and Olga so I don't think he would've wanted to "rip them off". Now Christian X I don't know. He was pretty annoyed at his aunt for hoarding the jewels and "sponging" off her relatives rather than selling them. As far as Xenia, I believe she gave some of her jewellry to each of her children, maybe not Irina since she got some upon her marriage, but I could be wrong. I'll have to recheck Xenia's biography. Miechen did the same thing--certain sets going to each child.

[Martyn]

Hi Grandduchessella.  I agree with you; the suspicion about May somehow conning Xenia and Olga has hung around for a long time.
Hennels finally located their records of the transactions which proved that she paid above the valuation figure for some of the pieces.  Hennels initially valued some of the pieces and then adjusted the value at a later date - the sale was quite protracted - but May paid the valuation figures and above,.  I don't think that the devaluation of some of the pieces was calculated to benefit her but more that possibly the precise weight of some of the stones whilst in the settings could not be calculated accurately at first - that kind of thing.
Miechen as you rightly say left her jewels to her children - I know that Elena was specifically to have the diamonds, can't remember how the other bequests went (maybe Kirill, pearls, Andrei, sapphires, Boris rubies - I'm usually wrong!).  However they all decided to pool most of the jewels and offer them for sale, hence May ended up with the wonderful diamond and pearl tiara and Marie of Roumania bought the sapphire and diamond tiara.  Marie also snapped up Ella's emeralds from Marie Pavlovna the younger, which were given to her daughter Marie (Mignon) and a wonderfully huge sapphire that had belonged to Ferdinand of Bulgaria (via Cartier).  I think that she also helped Ducky by buying some of her jewellery.  So May wasn't the only person buying jewellery; I think that their purchase of the jewels probably did some good, as a lot of jewellers deliberately undervalued well known jewellery when it was offered to them.
I agree that George tried to help Xenia and Olga as much as he could; perhaps Xenia benefitted more because she stayed in England whereas Olga had to leave Denmark because no one could/would guarantee her safety there.  I really feel that George and May's dealings with Xenia and Olga were entirely honest and motivated out of a desire to help.

[Janet_W.]

I'm glad to read that Queen Mary did pay a fair price for the various jewels that she purchased. However, I have read that she was--as one of us phrased it--something of a "magpie," and that she tended to get a gleam in her eye when she'd spy something in someone else's home that she felt belonged in the royal collection. If I recall correctly, some folks were even known to put away valued pieces before her visit, as they felt they might be pressured into making a gift of them!

As for the Dowager Empress Marie, although this is perhaps unfair, I can imagine her personage--as portrayed in various dramatic productions by Helen Hayes, Irene Worth, and Jane La (oh, dang, can't remember the spelling, but she's the wonderful actress who portrayed the mature "Minnie" in Edward the King)--being determined to hold on to her jewels, all the while setting her suite in the Danish palace ablaze with electricity!  

[grandduchessella]

I agree that QM totally liked to "admire" other people's items, especially later in life.  I think that she definitely had her eye on these items and was glad to get them, but didn't want to defraud relatives. I think most of her "requests" for items (I'm caressing it with my eyes she was known to say) came from non-relatives.  

[Martyn]

There is a wonderful anecdote concerning Q.Mary's vists to people who had interesting collections of furniture and bibelots but I simply can't remember where I read it - may have been James Pope Hennessy.
Anyway May was taking afternoon tea with someone and admired a wonderful 18thc table and chairs that belonged to her hostess.  The latter may have been slow to take the hint or she may have been particularly fond of her antiques - either way she did not take the bait and accepted the praise but without any further comment.
May was nothing if not determined and stayed and stayed........quite beyond the hour appointed for dinner in this lady's household.  In the event, the hostess finally conceded defeat and May departed, taking the aforementioned table and chairs away with her in her car!
On a serious note, the Royal Collection benefitted enormously from May's wonderful taste and knowledge of furniture and collectibles, even if her methods of collecting were a little unorthodox.  I think that she as much as anyone understood the vicissitudes of fate, having lived throught the lean years when White Lodge was shut up and the Tecks had been obliged to decamp to Florence; she may well have viewed her jewels not just as symbols of her royal status, but also as a form of insurance against fate, in much the same way as Alix and her daughters did when they took their jewels with then into exile.