Leonid Sednev

[Douglas]

An indoor kitchen cook would not wear their white uniform outside unless they were serving a picnic or buffet.  They would wear their undress clothes as AP indicates.  This would signal they are 'off duty' and resting.  If they wore their white uniform outside, someone might assume it permissible to  ask them to fetch a pot of tea.

I would further speculate that the figure in the distance could be Sednev because of his distance from the others.  He would know better than to approach Alexei when his father was standing nearby.  He takes his walk off the the side and does not act presumptuous in his association with the IF.

There is always a respectful distance in place when uniformed manservants  associate with royals.  One can be close to them but it is usually when no one is observing, let alone taking photos.  Of course this norm can be broken if the servant has been invited to join in.

[Dust_of_History]

OK, but how can we be so sure that Sednev was off duty the moment the photo was taken? I think he spent most of his time in the kitchen and didn't go out that often. Once he had time, he went outside and played with Alexei even in the presence of the tsar. IMO there was no need for him to stand aside. Sorry for being kind of stubborn but for me the figure still looks like a guard on duty. His posture speaks for itself.

[aleksandr pavlovich]

This will be in regards to my Reply # 270, wherein I initially spoke of a Tobolsk captivity photo that a "little boy servant" had been mentioned in the caption.  I have been trying to find the original caption (in Russian), as I only remembered the English translation under the photo:  NOW, I think that we are one step closer to the source, as I have found ANOTHER (directly-related) reference to it from one of our knowledgable/precise forum members in a different thread:  Please refer to the thread, "Maria's last known fotograph,"  Reply # 48, of July 09, 2010; the poster is "nena", and the reference with which we are concerned arose from a dating discussion of Tobolsk captivity photos.  If I may, I would like to quote the posted reply in full, with the emphasis being mine:

                      (Quote) "I am sorry, but I doubt if those were taken during the winter.  Siberian climate is unmerciful, and the snow falls from November up to late March.  I understand your point -- we have already been debating about the exact date of taking this photo. Russian sources label that it was taken in April of 1918 by Monsieur Pierre Gilliard (?).  I would guess that those were taken shortly upon IF's arrival in Tobolsk.  RUSSIAN ARCHIVE LABEL THE ONE PHOTO OF TSAR, ALEXEI, THREE DAUGHTERS AND LITTLE BOY-SERVANT TO HAVE BEEN TAKEN IN SEPTEMBER OF 1917.  All in all, either it was taken during the fall of 1917 or during the early spring of 1918. I don't know in any diary entry mentions taking photo on the Greenhouse, I'll have to check." (end quote)

                      Thus we have again, and now separately, the photo's location, date and source, as well as the reference to the " little boy servant."   Perhaps "nena" can further point out the location of the photo AND caption in the "Russian archive."  I know that we all would be most appreciative.   Regards,  AP.

[Douglas]

OK, but how can we be so sure that Sednev was off duty the moment the photo was taken? I think he spent most of his time in the kitchen and didn't go out that often. Once he had time, he went outside and played with Alexei even in the presence of the tsar. IMO there was no need for him to stand aside. Sorry for being kind of stubborn but for me the figure still looks like a guard on duty. His posture speaks for itself.

Ok Dust, ...how can you be sure the kitchen boy spent most of his time in the kitchen?  That doesn't sound like the way the IF would treat a servant.  Sort of like a male Cinderella.  Slaving all day in a hot kitchen. I wouldn't like it.

I'm not a total expert on servant behavior but I just can't imagine a servant would casually lallygag around members of the IF if they were not invited.  

Dust, I must say, I do find your comments and opinions fascinating in a diverting manner.

Alek:
RUSSIAN ARCHIVE LABEL THE ONE PHOTO OF TSAR, ALEXEI, THREE DAUGHTERS AND LITTLE BOY-SERVANT TO HAVE BEEN TAKEN IN SEPTEMBER OF 1917.

Thanks for finding the official label for that photo.  Without other evidence, it just may be that the little figure in back is the "little servant boy". 

[aleksandr pavlovich]

Further on the caption of the "Exercise Photo":  Although I generally never utilize pm's, I have just sent one to "nena," to quickly draw his attrention to my request for potentially added information re the location, date, named figures /or positions, i.e. "the little servant - boy," as well as to see if he can indicate exactly where his sources of information reveal that the archived photo rests today, AND to see if he can reproduce the original accompanying caption, either in Russian or English.  I have asked him to be so kind as to reply on the open forum, so that we may all have the benefit of his input.  I certainly thank him immensely in advance for his time and effort on behalf of us all !   Regards, AP.

[nena]

Hello everyone!

About the photo taken in 'September of 1917, with the Heir, Tsar, three daughters and a little servant - boy' -- The caption, I clearly remember, indeed says that it was taken in September of 1917 in Governor's Mansion courtyard. I can't find the source for the date/place right now, it will take a while till I find it. It is a Russian source.

This one we are talking about :


BUT, as for 'the little servant boy' presented in the photo there is an misunderstanding. Well, Sraushka posted once that the boy could be/ is Ilya, a son of the servant who is presented here with Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaievna:



So -- I only repeated my belief that he is 'little Ilya -- son of a servant who frequently visited IF at Governor's mansion or even son of a peasant' (I am sorry, I don't know if I remembered his name quite well). When I find the source of the date, it will be posted. Russian archives didn't publish anything about the exact persons in photo up to now, only the date.  However, I know that 'servant boy ' is the main point of the story. I repeat, the caption doesn't say anything about the boy, and I added 'servant boy' in the post since he 'could be that Ilya'. Well, I will continue searching over the internet till I find something more.

[blessOTMA]

Thank you for those photos nena! I always loved that 2nd one. It's very sweet. The young child in the photos can indeed  be the child of a servant , but not a servant themselves . Calling him"  a little servant boy"  , is meant to record  his station , not his activities . imo. He is simply too young

[nena]

I have realized my mistake in referring to him. My sincere apologies to everyone -- I meant something completely different and I posted wrongly. Of course he can't be a servant, but possibly a son of the servant or the peasant at Tobolsk.

[Sarushka]

One of Maria Nikolaevna's letters from Ekaterinburg to her siblings in Tobolsk mentions a child named Tolia -- "does Tolia still come to play?" (23 April/6 May 1918, quoted on pg 275 of Le Tsarevitch)

And on 28 April/11 May, Aleksei notes in a letter to Alexandra that "They don't let Kolia and Tolia come." (pg 276)


The child in these photos seems very young to be a playmate to Aleksei, but it's not outside the realm of possibility...

[aleksandr pavlovich]

Continuing comments on the subject of the "servant boy" photograph:  Interesting information, ALL! It is amazing to see how forum members work together for clarification!  Thanks for all your responses/comments, and especially to "nena," for showing us the photo that he meant was that of the very young boy with essentially the same grouping of the IF.  Now, we are apparently back to "square one" on THIS angle of the search.  I am still very much of the opinion that the caption that I saw (BEFORE I found "nena's" reference)  was attached to the "exercise" photo and will continue to search for it.  I remember the caption (in English) as having white  type letters on black backgouund below the photo.  So, until it comes up, we can now consider the two different photos separate with the odd potential of the same caption. And little "Ilya" (son of a servant ?) can resume his rightful place in photographic history!    Regards,  AP.

[blessOTMA]

One of Maria Nikolaevna's letters from Ekaterinburg to her siblings in Tobolsk mentions a child named Tolia -- "does Tolia still come to play?" (23 April/6 May 1918, quoted on pg 275 of Le Tsarevitch)
 

Interesting. I  can certainly see Marie interested in the doings of a  young child she had known...and whether Tolia is still allowed to come would be  an indication of how things are for Aleksei and "the sisters " as  well.  No worries nena ! I think everyone knew what you meant

[aleksandr pavlovich]

Yes, "nena"!  I have thanked you privately, and now I do so publicly.  I am very appreciative of your kind and prompt input!  I understand the (diminutive) name of the little child now to be "Tolia."   With best wishes,  AP.

[EmmyLee]

I hope you can find the original caption, AP, so that it can be either confirmed or turned down as a possible photo of Leonid. It's interesting how one can view that photo so many times and never give much heed to the figure in the background. The same can be said for so many of these photos.

[aleksandr pavlovich]

Re Reply # 294:  I agree wholeheartedly, "EmmyLee"!  I search as frequently as I have the time, for that particular combination photo/caption.  I remember it being on the screen as a segue to another (initial) inquiry that I had made, and what is so pertinent, is that I posted my reference to it BEFORE I later saw (and commented on) the similiar/almost duplicate wording on the "Maria's last foto" thread. The dates are: I first commented on the "exercise" photo on August 12/Reply #270.  I commented on the "Maria" Thread reference on August 14/Reply # 284. We have had an explanation as to how a similiar photo figure configuration (daughters,Tsar, Heir and "little servant-boy") also from the Tobolsk captivity, got labeled "little servant-boy," and that is simply one of those extraordinary/amazing occurences! The words from the caption that I remember exactly were "little servant boy" (no hyphen, and naturally it was attached to the "exercise" photo), and in English. The color was sepia (or a very contrasting color), with the caption under the photo, in white type on black. It HAS  to be around somewhere, otherwise I, myself, without that specific wording, would have never noticed the youthful figure in the "exercise" photo! Please be assured that the instant I am able to retrieve it, I will post it.  
                       Thanks again for all your interest, and I hope that your summer continues to go well !  Regards,  AP.

[LifeOfJudaism]

Random fact: Leonid sednev was believed to have lived 11 years later after the night of July 17th, 1918, in the same spot the imperial family died, he died.