Author Topic: Re: New DNA article...  (Read 15780 times)

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sushismom

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Re: New DNA article...
« on: February 25, 2004, 04:44:00 PM »
Thanks for posting this. It is indeed interesting information and I am also curious as to the outcome.

nerdycool

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2004, 07:46:25 PM »
Wow, that is interesting. If this is indeed true, it will open up a whole new world of questions and controversy (heck, it's already causing new questions and controversy!!!). Thanks for bringing this to the forum.

jcl

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2004, 07:24:01 AM »
Penny, Please give  a little more info on the Peter Kurth article... what are atr-ites?

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2004, 06:21:40 PM »
We will have to let the scientists battle this out.  Here we have one voice against Gill and Ivanov.  I see no reason to doubt the findings so far.... and in any case....

The murderers had themselves photographed on the gravesite and drew maps of where they buried them.  That is exactly where they were found.  It's them.

Bob Atchison

Pravoslavnaya

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2004, 07:49:52 PM »
Mr. Atchison -  very logical indeed.  Two questions come up:

1. Just WHY would the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad have allowed someone to take a DNA sample from a relic of St. Elizabeth?
2. What chance is there that the Bolsheviks might have mapped where the attempted burning of the Tsarevich and his sister occurred?

Jmentanko

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2004, 09:23:12 PM »
I'm sorry but you will become very overwhelmed if you try to understand any information about the Romanovs without an open mind. We must all approach everything the same way. We must question and analyze everything and we can not disregard anything. This is a new development as well as an interesting one. I'm sure there will be some conspiracy theory to go along with it soon as well.

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2004, 08:56:33 AM »
Hi Penny:

Thanks for posting the original article and the follow-up.

I have never understood why some church people and members of the USA nobility association have continued to promote fairytales like the transportation of the heads of the Romanovs in barrels to Lenin in the Kremlin....

Bob  

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2004, 09:00:12 AM »
Pravoslavnaya:

I completely agree with you regarding the relics of St. Elizabeth.  If ROCOR was willing to allow them to test her remains why were they not willing to allow testing on the blood, finger (of Nicholas I believe) and other fragments of the bodies they have custody of in Brussels?  These are actual remains of the family and would have been of great help to the investigators...

Bob

Offline Greg_King

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2004, 10:06:02 PM »
Quote
Pravoslavnaya:

I completely agree with you regarding the relics of St. Elizabeth.  If ROCOR was willing to allow them to test her remains why were they not willing to allow testing on the blood, finger (of Nicholas I believe) and other fragments of the bodies they have custody of in Brussels?  These are actual remains of the family and would have been of great help to the investigators...

Bob


On this subject, Bob, I have serious doubts that the Church of St. Ioann still has these remains.  In researching our book, Penny and myself met Maurice Philip Remy, a German producer who had done extensive work on the Romanov case back in the 1990s.  During our time with him in Munich, he told us that officials at the Church of St. Ioann no longer had the actual human remains (which amount of 13 drops of blood, the severed finger, two pieces of skin, Dr. Botkin's false teeth, and a number of small bones-never identified as human-which, having come from the Four Brothers Mine area couldn't have anything to do with the missing remains from the actual grave [my bet, as Peter Sarandinaki, who has led a number of searches of the area, also believes is that these represent what remains of Ortino]).

Mr. Remy let us read through his file of official correspondence (which, being intended for his documentary, was intended to be made public) with one of the Deacons and I believe an Archbishop whose name I cannot recall, though I wrote it down someone, and these letters confirmed that the human remains, as above, were turned over to Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich at some point.  Further, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna confirmed that her father had negotiated the return of these remains.  The correspondence she provided us on the subject dated from the 1930s, so it seems that the human remains were in Vladimir's possession from that time on; they seem, from all indications, to have been buried in the Cemetery of Ste. Genevieve des Bois outside Paris, though the Grand Duchess wouldn't confirm this except to say that the human remains were not in Brussels.

Officials at the Church gave some contradictory stories about this, and then claimed to have them in 1998 when the Russian Government wanted to undertake testing, but given the above it seems they don't hold them any longer.

Additionally, Mr. Remy shared what he had been given by the church officials at St. Ioann's, which was a complete inventory, with individual photographs of every item, of what they had bricked up in their wall.  The inventory and photos seemed, if I recall, to date from the late 1960s or early 1970s-the photos were in color, and showed every item there.  The human remains were not among them, corresponding to the letters from Grand Duke Vladimir and the information from Grand Duchess Maria, and from the photos we saw and the letters from the officials at St. Ioann we were allowed to read.

My guess is that HIH Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna knows exactly where the remains are buried, but as her correspondence intimated, wants them left in peace.

The idea that the heads were taken to Moscow, incidentally, comes from General Michael Deterikhs, whose book included an account given by Iliodor asserting that he saw Nicholas II's head in the Kremlin under a glass dome!  It's absurd, and why the so-called Expert Commission believes this nonsense is beyond me!

Greg King

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2004, 10:26:52 AM »
Thanks for that information....

I don't know what is in Brussels.  Remy contacted me to try and find out what could be found there when he was starting his search for a TV show.  There were others doing the same thing.  All I could say is that a Russian scholar (we both know him) claims that the remains are under the control of some mysterious group that he won't identify or give any contact info for.  He refused to help Remy.

This "Russian scholar" has insisted I not give his name and I have respected that.  I don't know what to make of this claim of this group.  He has consistently told me story this since the 80's.  I don't have any direct evidence of my own to share other than Bishop Vassili (Rodzianko) told me the remains were there, I don't know how he knew or whether he knew for sure of had just heard this like the rest of us.

BTW according to Orthodox practice the physical relics of the bodies should go in the altar not the wall.  I don't know if that means anything.  I always thought the wall didn't make sense for the remains.

Bob

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2004, 06:27:37 PM »
I have also shared this information on the atr newsgroup, but for those who don't subscribe, I have the following:

Around the same time as the Yekaterinburg remains were being tested and before the Duke of Edinburgh blood sample, an American family collected a blood sample from Katherine De Silva, who is also a descendant as are Prince Philip and Empress Alexandra, of Princess Alice of Hesse. Katherine DS's mtDNA was sequenced at Brown University. It exactly matched the reputed mtDNA of Alexandra and her 3 daughters AND it exactly matched Philip's AND exactly matched the other samples submitted in Gill and Ivanov's tests. According to scientists I know, these repeated results strengthen the identification of Alexandra and her daughters and likely mean the finger is not Elizabeth's.

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2004, 06:47:55 PM »
I met Kharitonov's grandson in Yekaterinburg at the gravesite.  I was amazed how much he looked like his grandfather.

Bob

Rodger

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2004, 07:05:16 PM »
Then kindly ask the scientists you know how Gill and Ivanov could sequence DNA lengths of 1,223 base pairs, which is a stretch even for fresh DNA drawn from swabs?

Fresh blood will give 1,223 bps, but not DNA taken from spongy skeletons lying in a muddy pit and handled by numerous persons over a 75 year period.

Can you say 'CONTAMINATION?'

I suggest you have your scientist experts send the raw data to Dr. Alec Knight, Senior Research Scientist, Department of Anthropology, Stanford University.

Email:  aknight@stanford.edu

Rodger

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2004, 08:19:31 PM »
DNA is an exact science.  One cannot 'estimate' whether or not a particular molecule is in a particular locus or not.  It either is, or it is not.  

Gill reported amplification of 1,223 base pairs for each of the skeletons tested, 'almost as good as fresh blood.'

Maybe this will help.  All it takes is one single molecule difference between two individuals to exclude relationship.  If one 'estimates' that a particular base exists in a region, then necessarily one is invalidating a test.  

But this is not the case with Gill-Ivanov.  They report amplification of 1,223 base pairs from skeletons they themselves report as in an extremely degraded condition.  Don't take my word for it, look it up for yourself:  Gill, Ivanov et. al.  Nature Genetics, February, 1994.  

No, I am not one of the scientists in the Knight Group.

Rodger

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Re: New DNA article...
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2004, 10:27:05 PM »
In addition to the faulty, if not out and out faked DNA test, it must be noted that the journal article takes great pains to point out that there are considerable forensic difficulties with the remains.  

The supposed 'new site' had been accessed a number of times prior to alleged 'discovery.'

Bones were removed, and added.

And it's also noted that the alleged 'amateurs' whom discovered the site, at least one was an agent of the Internal Minister of the Soviet Union, the ministry charged with the safeguard of 'state assets.'

Personally, I don't believe the remains to be that of the Imperial Family.