Author Topic: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?  (Read 73599 times)

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Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2004, 05:02:20 PM »
Penny's comments go right to the heart of why I cannot endorse her book, res ipsa loquitur, they speak for themselves.   >:(
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2004, 05:02:40 PM »
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I for myself can not find any truth or rightness in killing innocent people.


Well, as I said, I do have regrets for the Empress and her children.  Nicholas, I think, was as guilty of killing the innocent as Yurovsky -- the only difference being that Yurovsky did it himself, while Nicholas never got his hands dirty.

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The men that murdered the Imperial Family are not judged for their wishing of a better future for their families. They must be judged for their crime.

Except that wanting to make a change for a better Russia was a reason for the Revolution and -- ultimately -- the murders, pointless as they turned out to be.  This and the weight of a rather righteous anger, are what might be called extenuating circumstances in a court of law.  Perhaps -- in the case of Nicholas -- they might be guilty of manslaughter rather than murder.

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Someone who can do what they did that night (and in the way they did it), is not a human being any more.  


I've heard this argument before, and quite honestly, I think it's too easy of an answer.  It's a cop-out.  People don't lose their humanity through murder; murder IS a human crime -- I don't know of any other species that indulges in it so regularly and so predictably as we do.  I think when we say that people who murder are "no longer human," we are trying to distance ourselves from the crime and that which connects us to the criminal -- our humanity.  Of course, none of us here would commit such a crime -- perhaps this is, in part, why we are fascinated with this family's story.  But we can't simply wash our hands of trying to understand the motivations of the Bolsheviks in general and Yurovsky in this particular by dismissing them from the human race.  It doesn't work that way -- at least not for me...

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By the way, i find no difference between Yermakov and the Manson´s murderers.

I have no idea how Ermakov's psychosis might compare to Manson's.  There may well be parallels, since they both seemed to enjoy their roles as bringers of death.  In this post, though, I was writing about Yakov Yurovsky, not Peter Ermakov.

And without getting too far off topic here, one glaring difference between the murder of Sharon Tate and her friends and the murders of the Romanovs is that it didn't matter who was home at the Cielo Drive house -- any member of the white establishment would have satisifed Manson's plan.  The Romanovs were killed specifically because of their family name and history.
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2004, 05:15:58 PM »
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Penny's comments go right to the heart of why I cannot endorse her book, res ipsa loquitur, they speak for themselves.   >:(


Oh, come now, Rodger!  You're trying to make a monster of me! I would think that you of all posters here would appreciate the value of a somewhat dissenting opinion -- and after all, I'm not endorsing the murders.  I said specifically in several places that I disagreed with the murders of the Empress and the children, but that I can see the why behind Nicholas' killing.
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Offline Antonio_P.Caballer

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2004, 05:43:47 PM »
Hello Penny,

I´m afraid that i have not the necessary knowledge of this language for disscusing so complex a subject.

Well, at least i don´t think Nicholas ordered to kill any innocent child.

I can understand what you said about the bolsheviks´anger, and have tried many times to put myself in the place of those people that had to see how their own children died in poverty. I can understand they hated what the monarchy-aristocracy simbolized.
What made the difference is that in the Ipatie house they planed and comitted the murder with "cold mind"(hope you understand, because ít´s the way we say it in spanish and cannot translate).

When i said they were not human being any more i meant not in the sense you explained. When i say someone is a human being i mean that he/she has those good qualities due to the humanity. However i know this could be only my opinion, and therefore it´s my mistake not having expressed it correctly.

I agree with you about the difference between the crime in Ekaterinburg and Cielo Drive. I know you spoke about Yurovsky, but since you also commented on the bolsheviks i took Yermakov for example.
He and the Manson´s girls(and boy) in Cielo Drive were following orders and have their "reasons" to do what they did.

In a murder i can try to understand the facts driving the killers to do what they do but there is still no reason to justify it.

That´s what i poorly tried to explain.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Antonio_P.Caballer »

Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2004, 05:54:05 PM »
And what precisely is this 'why' by which you can see some (obscure) justification for killing Nicholas?

Of course, this is an academic question because much to the Bolshevik's chagrin, Nicholas along with his family, were rescued.
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Offline Antonio_P.Caballer

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2004, 06:01:34 PM »
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And what precisely is this 'why' by which you can see some (obscure) justification for killing Nicholas?

Of course, this is an academic question because much to the Bolshevik's chagrin, Nicholas along with his family, were rescued.


Hello Rodger,

Are you answering Penny or me? Your message apeared after mine but cannot find in my words anything making you to say that i found a justification for killing Nicholas....

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2004, 06:04:29 PM »
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Hello Penny,

I´m afraid that i have not the necessary knowledge of this language for disscusing so complex a subject.


And I'm sorry I don't have the Spanish!  You'd think I would, living in Southern California, wouldn't you?  But I think your English is pretty excellent, anyway!

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Well, at least i don´t think Nicholas ordered to kill any innocent child.


Not specifically by name, at any rate.  But I am referring to the various state-sanctioned pogroms and the innocents murdered then...

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I can understand what you said about the bolsheviks´anger, and have tried many times to put myself in the place of those people that had to see how their own children died in poverty. I can understand they hated what the monarchy-aristocracy simbolized.
What made the difference is that in the Ipatiev house they planed and comitted the murder with "cold mind"(hope you understand, because ít´s the way we say it in spanish and cannot translate).


We say "in cold blood" in English -- it means the same thing.  And yes, insofar as the murders of Alexandra and the children are concerned, you and I are in total agreement.

I believe that the cold blooded decision to murder Alexandra and her children was taken in order to "cross the Rubicon," as it were -- to make a sign that the Revolution had gone this far and that there was no going back.

And I also think that with the White Army approaching Ekaterinburg, and no guarantee that the Whites weren't going to win the Civil War right then, that there was a certain element of "getting rid of the evidence."  

But we are in complete agreement about the murders of A and the children -- most of this situation appears to me not in black and white, but in shades of grey, but the murders of the Romanovs who were not Nicholas and any of the retainers and servants do look pretty black to me.

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When i said they were not human being any more i meant not in the sense you explained. When i say someone is a human being i mean that he/she has those good qualities due to the humanity. However i know this could be only my opinion, and therefore it´s my mistake not having expressed it correctly.


OK.  I misunderstood you.  I see what you mean, and yes, I would agree that at the time of the murders, these fairly normal and otherwise unremarkable men did abandon what Abraham Lincoln called "the better angels" of their souls.

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I agree with you about the difference between the crime in Ekaterinburg and Cielo Drive. I know you spoke about Yurovsky, but since you also commented on the bolsheviks i took Yermakov for example.
He and the Manson´s girls(and boy) in Cielo Drive were following orders and have their "reasons" to do what they did.

In a murder i can try to understand the facts driving the killers to do what they do but there is still no reason to justify it.

That´s what i poorly tried to explain.


No, you explained it just fine.  I get you now.  And I think that we only disagree about Nicholas.  I can understand why the assassins killed him -- as Yurovsky himself said, "I fired at Nicholas, and everyone else did too."  It was the rage at Nicholas specifically that drove them -- for reasons already outlined here.

The saddest thing for me remains the fact that all these murders were just so pointless.  By the time they happened, there was no way that Nicholas was heading back onto the throne -- things had progressed too far in Russia, and the Dynasty was obsolete.  It's a shame that the Family weren't, in the words of one of the guards, "allowed to escape."
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Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2004, 06:05:57 PM »
I'm sorry Antonio, that was directed to Penny.  

And Penny, no, I don't believe you are a monster.  So I apologize to you personally, and to anybody who gets that impression from my post.   :-[
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Offline Guinastasia

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2004, 06:12:42 PM »
Rescued?  Rescued how?  And what happened to them?  

Why didn't anyone hear about it?

As for the Mansons, they were a bunch of nutjobs.  I don't think you can compare them to Yurovsky and co.

And while I'm VERY anti-death penalty, one can make a case for the execution of the Tsar, as he was the former ruler and as such, responsible for what happened under his watch.  (NOT that I'd agree with execution, just that I'm a realist).

The rest of the family and the retainers-no way.
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2004, 06:20:03 PM »
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And what precisely is this 'why' by which you can see some (obscure) justification for killing Nicholas?


It's not really all that obscure, Rodger:  For the Bolsheviks, I believe that Nicholas personified the wrongs -- or crimes, if you will --  of his dynasty.  He represented the years of political and personal oppression, the lack of any sort of personal rights, and the murders of thousands of his subjects through pogroms and other policies.

That's the short answer.  And you'll notice that nowhere did I say that murdering him was something that I would do -- just that I understood WHY these men would.  Understanding is not necessarily the same as agreeing. An analogy: I understand WHY many murderers in this country are executed, without personally agreeing with the death penalty.  

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Of course, this is an academic question because much to the Bolshevik's chagrin, Nicholas along with his family, were rescued.


So my question now is:  Do you object to my book because of my not-so-shocking opinions, or because we wrote that the Romanovs died?  Hmmm....  8)

And as I've tried to explain myself here -- and stand ready to explain again because this is a huge subject, my thoughts of which are hard to contain in one or two posts -- why don't you explain yourself now?   You've hinted around quite a bit -- but please explain as much as you can about how this rescue took place.  I am truly and genuinely interested.  I would be absolutely delighted if no murder at all took place! :D

Penny
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »
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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2004, 06:21:45 PM »
Rod thinks that just because the Gill dna evidence may be in question that the REST of the physical evidence does not matter and that the remains in Ekaterinburg are not the IF et al.

As for the Manson murders, they were more than "nut jobs" but not quite Yurovski and co.  I lived less than 1.5 miles from Cielo Drive when the murders happened, and remember that night vividly.  A VERY close friend of the family was very close to Sharon Tate, and Sharon had called her that evening to come join them at the house. Our friend had to beg off expecting a call from the UK that night and said she would stop in for coffee in the morning...she drove up to Cielo, but did not stop as she realized she was too late for an appointment; she otherwise would have been the one to find the bodies. She spend six months in hiding and on medication after that.

Manson et al were similarly motivated to the Bolsheviks in that they wanted to start a "revolution" by their murders...but that is all. They had no hatred for their victims per se....they were chosen at random...Yurovski and co knew exactly WHO they were killing, and why.
However, we digress from the 'rape' part of the discussion of this thread..ahem ahem.
my two cents.
FA

Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2004, 06:22:07 PM »
There are plenty of credible but suppressed reports of the rescue.  You'll just have to look a little deeper.

Now, here's a hypo for someone who endorses the goofy concept of respondeat superior which you Guiastasia, are endorsing.

Imagine that your country has the law that whatever crimes are committed in your country by people under your charge, you are responsible for.  Can you see how this would lead to extreme injustice?

For example, under such a system (and it is the legal standard in California) a leader who has no direct control of those under him or her is responsible for crimes committed that he or she has no ability to control!

Here's another example, imagine that this leader has persons under his or her authority who secretly covet or even disagree with him or her and want that person to be embarassed or even made guilty of crime.  All they have to do is commit some atrocity, or even sanction it, and the leader is held responsible for something that he or she would not in any way, shape or form endorse, let alone want to have happen.  

Can you see why your argument regarding Nicholas' 'responsibility' or 'punishment' fails?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by _Rodger_ »
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Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2004, 06:24:13 PM »
FA's explanation of my thinking, or knowledge, is inadequate and does not represent my assertions on the matter.

However, I refuse to go into detail.  So, I suppose since there is a vacuum, his comments are as good as any, I suppose. . .   ::)
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2004, 06:27:01 PM »
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There are plenty of credible but suppressed reports of the rescue.  You'll just have to look a little deeper.


You tease, Rodger! :-*

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Can you see why your argument regarding Nicholas' 'responsibility' or 'punishment' fails?  


I can understand how it fails philosophically.  Absolutely.  But I don't think we are dealing with philosophers in Ekaterinburg.  I think we are dealing with an act of pure "people's revenge."
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Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2004, 06:31:29 PM »
Then if there was a 'People's Revenge,' why wasn't Ipatiev House stormed by thousands of angry peasants with pitchforks?

If there was so much anger, the guards would have let them in, don't you think?
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