Author Topic: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?  (Read 73598 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Sunny

  • Guest
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2004, 07:40:06 PM »
Wish there was a "thumbs up" icon for: "Then if there was a 'People's Revenge,' why wasn't Ipatiev House stormed by thousands of angry peasants with pitchforks?

If there was so much anger, the guards would have let them in, don't you think?"  


While I don't think the bones buried in the fortress are the family, I've never questioned the murders. I also think that the "truth" is a lot 180 degrees away from what is accepted as truth. Rodger, I hope that at some point you might relate something of what leads you to believe the family was rescued.

Sunny

AnastasiaFan

  • Guest
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2004, 08:42:25 PM »
Quote
Penny's comments go right to the heart of why I cannot endorse her book, res ipsa loquitur, they speak for themselves.   >:(


That is one thing I agree with you on, Rodger. The being a little bit "Bolshie" comment sheds a lot of light on many things now!!! And I will never believe that man felt any sorrow for what he did, especially if he wasn't following orders yet decided to take part in the killings anyway. And I mean no disrespect to you Penny, I just don't try to justify or "understand" his motives.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2004, 09:06:24 PM »
Quote
FA's explanation of my thinking, or knowledge, is inadequate and does not represent my assertions on the matter.

However, I refuse to go into detail.  So, I suppose since there is a vacuum, his comments are as good as any, I suppose. . .   ::)


Rod, lets be fair. YOU yourself have jumped on many posters who assert statements without "going into detail". No harm meant on my part, but if you have more to back up your assertions, lets hear them. If not, you should not be throwing stones.

Rob

Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2004, 09:19:49 PM »
Quote
The being a little bit "Bolshie" comment sheds a lot of light on many things now!!!


Oh, does it now?  Do tell...  ;)

Quote
And I mean no disrespect to you Penny, I just don't try to justify or "understand" his motives.


Of course you meant me disrespect, AnastasiaFan.  I don't know how else you might have meant your above comment.  But don't worry about it -- I'm not!   :-*

Edited to say:  My kissy-face isn't kissing!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline _Rodger_

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 53
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2004, 09:52:06 PM »
Rob, there is so much that was rejected out of hand by Sokolov and others, and unjustifiably so.  Am I going to cite one particular published paper that presents per se prima facie evidence that proves conclusively for all time against all comers that the Imperial family survived?  No.  

But there are more than enough published materials to justify my belief about rescue and survival.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by _Rodger_ »
WARNING!!!!  This post may be hazardous to one's sense of things.  Read with caution.

Offline Mark_Byron

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2004, 09:58:27 PM »
O.K. here goes.
I think the topic now is was Nicholas's execution neccesary and viable. It was inevitable, in my mind. No country would touch him. Why? Because Nicholas' government represented a massive surpression of civil rights for its people. That's all well and fine as long as he didn't push his policies into other countries. But went he fell from power, "Sorry, bud, you're on your own." I'm thinking of cousin Georgie.
As far as the feelings of the revolutionaries, I agree with Penny. Imagining pulling on an elastic band, as far as it can go, then letting go. That was the people's frame of mind when the monarchy expired. Savage actions on the rebound.
What will never be reconciled in our minds is the decision to shoot the entire family.

AnastasiaFan

  • Guest
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2004, 10:03:19 PM »
Quote
Oh, does it now?  Do tell...  ;)


Yes, it does...on why certain things are in your book.


Quote
Of course you meant me disrespect, AnastasiaFan.  I don't know how else you might have meant your above comment.


No I didn't mean any disrespect, which was why I went out of my way to say that. Trust me, if I had meant any disrespect, you would know it. All I meant was that comment made sense concerning some of the beliefs you hold.

Quote
Edited to say:  My kissy-face isn't kissing!


Now THAT'S mature! How old are you? Four? Your credibility has really gone down a few notches there!

Offline _Rodger_

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 53
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2004, 10:05:38 PM »
To 'Mark Byron'

You are using a modern politically correct standard, 'civil rights', and applying it to a different age.  

You are therefore committing the ultimate historical fallacy, chronological ethnocentricism.  

But just for the sake of argument, which government at any point in history has completely and indisputably applied the standard of civil rights to everyone's satisfaction?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by _Rodger_ »
WARNING!!!!  This post may be hazardous to one's sense of things.  Read with caution.

Offline DeAnochka

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 109
  • "Simply the thing I am shall make me live"
    • View Profile
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2004, 10:12:29 PM »
*jumps in*

Wow, isn't it amazing how this thread has evolved?  :o

I'm only 16, but you guys are all starting to sound. . . well, immature. No offense whatsoever. I don't want to start anything. . .  

AnastasiaFan

  • Guest
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2004, 10:25:05 PM »
Quote
*jumps in*

Wow, isn't it amazing how this thread has evolved?  :o

I'm only 16, but you guys are all starting to sound. . . well, immature. No offense whatsoever. I don't want to start anything. . .  


I agree with the immature nature, which is why I don't want to stoop to that low level. And for a 16-year-old, you are pretty wise.  :)

Offline Penny_Wilson

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
    • kingandwilson
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2004, 10:34:02 PM »
Quote
Now THAT'S mature! How old are you? Four? Your credibility has really gone down a few notches there!


Oh, Lordy!  I thought it was obvious that mine was a light-hearted remark.  You know -- a joke.  Clearly, I am not really upset that the smiley-face isn't kissing.  You seem determined to misunderstand me and paint me in colors that aren't mine.

So I'll just leave it here...
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline Mark_Byron

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?:
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2004, 10:34:17 PM »
Rodger:
I hear ya. Good points! Got me thinking of Teddy Roosevelt expounding on the Nicholas' Jewish pograms after the 1905 revoution while lynchings were going on in his own country.

Offline _Rodger_

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 53
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2004, 10:39:27 PM »
Okay, try this:

Please locate an authentic document issued by the Tsar that goes something like this:

'I Nikolai, By the Grace Of God, do hereby authorize my peasants and drunken soldiers to rape, murder and kill All Jewish persons living on my estate.'

Go ahead.  Look hard.  Take your time.  
WARNING!!!!  This post may be hazardous to one's sense of things.  Read with caution.

AnastasiaFan

  • Guest
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2004, 10:54:03 PM »
Quote

Oh, Lordy!  I thought it was obvious that mine was a light-hearted remark.  You know -- a joke.
 

People are not stupid, Penny. I am not the only one who knew your comment was no joke. Someone commented to me personally about your malice remark and how it was uncalled for. And as other people have stated on this board, it is quite obvious that there was no humor involved and that it was immature.

Quote
You seem determined to misunderstand me and paint me in colors that aren't mine.


I have absolutely no reason to do that. Why would I even *care* to do that? Trust me, my goal in life isn't to misjudge the intentions and thoughts of Penny Wilson.  

Quote
So I'll just leave it here...


Good idea.

Offline Greg_King

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 588
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
    • Atlantis Magazine
Re: Were the Grand Duchesses raped?
« Reply #74 on: June 01, 2004, 12:38:28 AM »
A couple of salient points, on a thread that now has nothing to do with its title:

1.  The Execution: The death of Nicholas II has, I think, to be looked at for what it was-a political execution, in a time of war.  Avoiding this reality ignores the basic forces that drove it in the first place.  Nicholas was viewed by nearly all his formerly allied countries as a fallen tyrant, a view largely echoed within Russia-the majority of the White Army didn't even want him back on the Throne.  This view informs the execution in the same way that others regarded as being similar have fallen victim in revolutions.  Understanding the motives behind N's death specifically place it in context; that's not to say that from this the justified murder of his family follows-it doesn't, nor does it pretend to justify N's death-merely that it was what could have been expected in these circumstances.  It's a question of understanding N's execution versus sympathizing or promoting it, which I don't see anyone here doing.
2.  On Yurovsky: The idea that he was, from his birth, a rabid, anti-monarchist, Communist butcher is just wrong.  When he was twelve he cheered the then Tsesarevich Nicholas during his 1891 visit to Tomsk on his return to Petersburg across Siberia.  His own writings even show that he was ambivalent about the eventual murders-he wrote specifically that after he came to know them it was hard to hate them, but he hated the system that N had represented.  Right after the murders, he was found collapsed on his sofa upstairs at the Ipatiev House, completely overwhelmed.  There's much more in his unpublished 1922 memoirs that speak to his regret over the murders, so I think simply refusing to believe both his evidence and the evidence of those in whom he confided is done at the risk of ignoring the mass of evidence in favor of personal prejudice.
3.  The Yermakov-Manson business: Since I wrote about Sharon Tate and the murders, and am good friends with Sharon's sister Debra, I have to say here (and this is outside the scope of this discussion but an important point on which I feel strongly) that in both instances-the Romanov execution and the Manson murders-those who participated did so of their own free will.  Nothing makes me more irrate than the commonly held idea that the people who killed Sharon were simply mindless puppets acting under Manson's orders, because it absolves them of complete responsibility for their own actions.  In both cases, all who participated are equally guilty.

Greg King