Author Topic: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?  (Read 23766 times)

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Naslednik

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Many of you know Churchill's famous paragraphs about Nicholas.  I think they are among the most succinct and powerful English words in defense of Nicholas' character -- in part because Churchill does not depend upon the "well he was a good husband and father" strategy.  He also addresses some of the questions that still exist in Russia today (democratise or hold firm).  I noticed many voices here critical of N's refusal to democratise (although he did create Duma, and think how long ago Magna Carta was written), so I wonder what you think of Winston Churchill's verdict:

'It is the shallow fashion of these times to dismiss the Tsarist regime as a purblind, corrupt, incompetent tyranny. But a survey of its thirty months' war with Germany and Austria should correct these loose impressions and expose the dominant facts. We may measure the strength of the Russian Empire by the battering it had endured, by the disasters it had survived, by the inexhaustible forces it had developed, and by the recovery it had made. In the governments of states, when great events are afoot, the leader of the nation, whoever he be, is held accountable for failure and vindicated by success. No matter who wrought the toil, who planned the struggle, to the supreme responsible authority belongs the blame or credit.

Why should this stern test be denied to Nicholas II? He had made many mistakes, what ruler has not? He was neither a great captain nor a great prince. He was only a true, simple man of average ability, of merciful disposition, upheld in all his daily life by his faith in God. But the brunt of supreme decisions centred upon him. At the summit where all problems are reduced to Yea or Nay, where events transcend the faculties of man and where all is inscrutable, he had to give the answers. His was the function of the compass needle. War or no war? Advance or retreat? Right or left? Democratise or hold firm? Quit or persevere? These were the battlefields of Nicholas II. Why should he reap no honour from them? The devoted onset of the Russian armies which saved Paris in 1914; the mastered agony of the munitionless retreat; the slowly regathered forces; the victories of Brusilov; the Russian entry upon the campaign of 1917, unconquered, stronger than ever; has he no share in these? In spite of errors vast and terrible, the regime he personified, over which he presided, to which his personal character gave the vital spark, had at this moment won the war for Russia.

He is about to be struck down. A dark hand, gloved at first in folly, now intervenes. Exit Tsar. Deliver him and all he loved to wounds and death. Belittle his efforts, asperse his conduct, insult his memory; but pause then to tell us who else was found capable. Who or what could guide the Russian State? Men gifted and daring; men ambitious and fierce, spirits audacious and commanding - of these there were no lack. But none could answer the few plain questions on which the life and fame of Russia turned'.


historyfan

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2009, 08:53:51 PM »
I had not seen this before.  May I ask where this was written?  Winston was succinct and powerful in all he spoke and wrote.

Naslednik

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2009, 10:56:15 AM »
I don't have a book with me to check the bibliography, but I believe it comes from Churchill's "The World Crisis: the Aftermath." You can find it in Massie's bibliography if you have it on hand.  Churchill not only is a master wordsmith, but he has a way of cutting straight through to the central issues.  It is intriguing that Churchill wanted to correct the facts, and why that mattered to him.  Perhaps his own experience in the Dardanelles gave him a visceral sense of what an autocrat faces...

WhiteRussian

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2009, 01:27:55 PM »
I would very strongly agree with Churchill's asessment, particularly involving WWI. I've been saying for a long time that Russia was the martyr of the Triple Entente. Without Russia's enormous armies, Paris falls by the end of 1914. In addition, it was the Russian Army that ended the Austro-Hungarian Army's independence as a fighting force (the Germans had to be involved in every operation thereafter). I would also like to add a quote by another foreign military leader involving Russia's participation in WWI. In Anton Denikin's book "Career of a Tsarist Officer" he quotes Field Marshal Ferdinand Foch as saying "If France is not obliterated from the map of Europe, the credit belongs chiefly to Russia." I think that is a very fitting quote.

Naslednik

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2009, 08:44:00 AM »
Interesting, White Russian, and thanks for the book recommendation.  It is surprising how few modern people would agree with Foch and Churchill, and I think this is one area where public awareness needs a nudge.  Of course, many countries focus so much on the second World War that little attention is paid to the First.  But I suspect that the reputation of the Russian Army somehow got swept up into the negative view of Tsarism and later, Bolshevism, and we have ignored some obvious facts.  The most obvious of these is to compare how deep Hitler made advances into the USSR versus the advances of the Austrians/Germans in the First War.  Quite different!!  Does anyone know if Russians themselves continue to hold such a negative view of their own Army in the First World War?

bkohatl

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2009, 06:54:32 AM »
Again, it is almost like people are talking about two entirely different people But, of course, one of them could possibly be real.

Truth is the daughter of time.

Naslednik

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2009, 02:48:01 PM »

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Truth is the daughter of time

Do you really think so?  I believe that it is very hard to undo entrenched opinions, and that the longer the misconceptions (or opinions) go on, the harder it is to come back to a more balanced view.  But I will try to keep your optimism!  By the way, I don't believe we should idealize historic figures, either, and we have to keep that balance as well.

historyfan

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2009, 07:58:31 PM »

Quote
Truth is the daughter of time

Do you really think so?  I believe that it is very hard to undo entrenched opinions, and that the longer the misconceptions (or opinions) go on, the harder it is to come back to a more balanced view.  But I will try to keep your optimism!  By the way, I don't believe we should idealize historic figures, either, and we have to keep that balance as well.

I tend to agree with you, naslednik. 

markjhnstn

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2009, 03:26:09 AM »
Interesting, White Russian, and thanks for the book recommendation.  It is surprising how few modern people would agree with Foch and Churchill, and I think this is one area where public awareness needs a nudge.  Of course, many countries focus so much on the second World War that little attention is paid to the First.  But I suspect that the reputation of the Russian Army somehow got swept up into the negative view of Tsarism and later, Bolshevism, and we have ignored some obvious facts.  The most obvious of these is to compare how deep Hitler made advances into the USSR versus the advances of the Austrians/Germans in the First War.  Quite different!!  Does anyone know if Russians themselves continue to hold such a negative view of their own Army in the First World War?

I think Hitler was able to force his way so far into Russia was mainly down the fact that the Wehrmacht was not also engaged in a massive land war in the west with Britain and France. We had already been disposed of. This was not the case in WW1. In 1941 the bulk of the German war machine was launched against the USSR.

historyfan

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2009, 08:44:40 PM »
And there was the element of surprise, to a degree, was there not?  After all, Hitler and Stalin had signed a non-aggression pact.  I don't think the Soviets were *quite* prepared.  But they got their own back...

Naslednik

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2009, 09:54:01 PM »
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In 1941 the bulk of the German war machine was launched against the USSR.

I haven't studied the 2 wars side by side, but would agree that the German land troops early in WWII were more heavily engaged in Russia.  However, the fighting in France was severe after D-Day until the end of that war.  And the RAF defense of England, which began early, wasn't exactly a picnic in the park for either side.  Also, the Russians friends I have tell me how terribly Stalin bungled the early part of the War, sometimes using the expected deaths of their own Red Army soldiers as a sort of physical impediment to the advance of the Germans.  By comparison, I think that the Russian Army in WWI faced problems more mid-war with munitions, but in spite of this, did not fall back as far as WWII.  Probably one thing we can all agree upon is that in the West, the contributions of the Soviet Army in WWII and the Imperial Army in WWI are nearly always overlooked, or minimized.  (And my personal opinion is that their contributions in WWI are practically unknown, or dismissed).  Is it true that the US Gov't didn't want to fight in the same war with an autocratic Tsarist Regime?  If so, that prejudice surely came back to haunt the US.

markjhnstn

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2009, 08:35:03 AM »
Yes, I definitely think that the Russian contributions in both wars are underestimated.

I don't think that the invasion of europe in 1944 could have been possible if Germany had not desperately been trying to hold off the Red Army steamroller that was pushing them back on all fronts. Had the USSR folded in 1941, trying to counter-invade from the west would have been a very daunting prospect even three years later.

In 1918, once Russia had left the war, Germany was able to launch one more great offensive in the west which very nearly won the war for them.

If Nicholas and Imperial Russia had been able to survive the revolution and share in the Allied victory of 1918, it makes you wonder how the next twenty-odd years of european history would have panned out.

I think the soldiers of the WW1 Russian Imperial army should be rightly remembered for their courage and sacrifices.

Alixz

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2009, 09:52:22 AM »
Quote
In 1941 the bulk of the German war machine was launched against the USSR.

Is it true that the US Gov't didn't want to fight in the same war with an autocratic Tsarist Regime?  If so, that prejudice surely came back to haunt the US.

Yes it is true.  And today is just one of those days when I want to say that President Wilson was an idiot.

However, the sinking of the Lusitania brought the US into World War I and the attack on Pearl Harbor brought the US into World War II and both of these actions have now been looked at from the perspective that both attacks may have been manipulations.

The Lusitania as a manipulation by the UK and Pearl Harbor as a manipulation by the US government itself.

That way we could be drawn into the war, not by our own declaration, but as a response to an attack that we couldn't ignore and still keep our dignity in the perspective of the world powers.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 09:57:33 AM by Alixz »

Naslednik

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2009, 06:33:43 PM »
Alixz, I haven't heard Pearl Harbor explained this way, tho' I do know about the information on the Lusitania that was surpressed.  I guess it is a tad off topic to ask you more!

Now perhaps the forum has discussed the Wilson issue before, but it would be fun to open the topic wider -- how much have Western conceptions of government, of the 'superiority' of democracy, affected policy with Russia over the ages?  I think that it is a mistake to assume that Russia must democratize like the West, and if we carry such assumptions aren't we more likely to make mistakes similar to President Wilson's?  It's that old half-European/half-Asiatic issue.

Alixz

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Re: Do you agree with Winston Churchill's summary of Nicholas?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2009, 06:51:28 PM »
Yes, I would like to do that.

I will get more information and come back later.  Right now I have to sign off.