Author Topic: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2  (Read 60053 times)

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etonexile

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #210 on: July 13, 2005, 11:30:27 AM »
Yes...one would assume that 4 labs testing the same tissues would reach the same result....

etonexile

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #211 on: July 13, 2005, 11:34:45 AM »
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Yes, she was the only one missing from the S. family.

Another question you should ask, was she the only one missing from other families who also fit this description at this time.  The answer is she was not the only one missing.

The Berlin police actually brought in members of families of other missing girls who fit AA's description and done of them reconized AA either.

AGRBear


Descriptions from other families aside...and there must have been many families in Europe after WWI with female relatives closely matching FS who went missing...the tissue samples from AA did match known relations of FS....

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #212 on: July 13, 2005, 03:30:42 PM »
The mtDNA matches AA and Gertrude.

There are possibilities how this can occur.  

Most people assume that AA was FS and sister of Gertrude S.

At this time, we do not know if Gertrude S. was FS's full sister or half sister or  cousins....

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

etonexile

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #213 on: July 13, 2005, 07:42:18 PM »
Bear...does it really matter if FS was Gertrude's sister or cousin if the DNA for the family is a match?...An F was the "only"(as far as we know) female of her generation to go missing in the S family....Don't make work for yourself.....

lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #214 on: July 13, 2005, 09:03:42 PM »
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No-one knows what it will be about.   8)   ;D  

The Pretenders won't happen for a few years yet -- there's a lot of travel and research yet to do, and in these Pretender cases especially, we have to be sure to do as thorough and complete a job as we did with FOTR.

We have a bio of Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig underway, and also there is a new book, the subject of which recently presented itself, and about which I can say nothing until all the details are ironed out.

Greg also has his book on the Court of Nicholas II coming soon -- this one is in production.

So I don't know which one with be out first -- but whichever it is, I think you'll like it!   ;)


Thank you for responding Penny.  I am looking forward to whatever you are publishing next.

Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #215 on: July 14, 2005, 01:56:33 PM »
Quote

As I have noted, the S family was studied intensively by German Eugenicists looking at the question of inheritable criminal tendencies. The study has been published and may contain some time-lines, but from my quick scan of the text, none seemed pertinent. However, Penny Wilson may know more.


RRS


I have read this about FS's family being studied for inheritable criminal tendancies a couple of times on these boards.

Were they made part of the study because of the FS/AA thing or something else?How does a family get selected for a study like this one?

Penny_Wilson

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #216 on: July 14, 2005, 02:09:00 PM »
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I have read this about FS's family being studied for inheritable criminal tendancies a couple of times on these boards.

Were they made part of the study because of the FS/AA thing or something else?How does a family get selected for a study like this one?


It was a Nazi research study, and the Schanzkowskys were selected for it specifically because of FS/AA.  Hitler himself took a small amount of personal interest in the mystery, though I think he ended up believing that AA was, indeed, FS.

Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #217 on: July 14, 2005, 02:12:46 PM »
Thank you, Penny!

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #218 on: July 15, 2005, 06:40:18 PM »
Quote
...[in part]....
I would like to point out the point which so many people are confusing.

[size=18]How many people had Anna Anderson's mtDNA type in Europe in 1918?[/size]
 
My Answer: About [size=16]50,000 [/size]people.

Not only AA's maternal relative. There are tons of them.

However, here is my calculation:

People who had AA's mtDNA in Europe: 50,000
Of whcih, who were woman: 25,000
Of which, who were age 17-26: 3500
Of which, those who lived around Berlin region: 200
Of which, those who looked like AA (at least to some extent): 20
Of which, those who disappeared around Feb 1920: 1
This one person's name was Franziska Schanzkowska.
Q.E.D.



This phylogenetic data supports my estimate. I will explain this when I have time.
...


If FS was murdered by Grossmann, then we've have to take a step back on daveK's "conjecture" .

There was more than one missing person who looked liked AA and the police brought them to see AA to see if she was whom the others were hoping to find.  Remember this was war time.  A lot of people were missing. I don't know the number who were.  Do you daveK?

Myself,  I'd take two steps backward and look at the 200 because I'm not sure if there is enough data to know how many of the 200 looked like AA and FS.  Maybe 20, maybe more.  I don't know.  What are the similarities of people with the same mtDNA?  Are the similarities higher, some or lower than those of another mtDNA link?

I don't have time to dig up what else daveK posted so PLEASE follow his link to see what else he's written.

I'm heading out to dinner so the rest of this DNA stuff is up to the rest of you.

AGRBear




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #219 on: July 15, 2005, 08:14:42 PM »
I have never believed they were anything but whole sisters. The 'question' has only been raised on this site, it's the first I ever heard of it, and a minor quote from one book which is likely inaccurate. I don't and never have believed the scientists who conducted the DNA tests would have bothered with anyone other than a true maternal relative. Karl Maucher even resembles AA in her younger days.  This controversy has gotten old to me. I just feel I must comment in hopes no newcomers to the topic will be misled or misinformed. Thanks again Helen for your expert advice.


Finelly

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #220 on: July 15, 2005, 08:38:18 PM »
It is logical to assume that they were sisters.

It is also logical to request more information as to their exact relationship.

What we do know from the dna is that they are related, sharing mitrochondrial dna.  What we do not know, due to lack of documentation in the form of birth records, etc., is whether they were cousins, siblings, or something else more distant.

jaa

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #221 on: July 17, 2005, 10:46:16 AM »
Excellent analysis, finelly.

Quote
I don't and never have believed the scientists who conducted the DNA tests would have bothered with anyone other than a true maternal relative.

I wondered about that, since they did not have any documentation for Gertrude. Dr. Ginther provides an entirely reasonable explanation in one of his emails to CuriousOne:

"I never wanted to know any more than necessary about any sample because I feared that knowledge might prejudice my result."

This is on page 2 of the now-locked Dr. Ginther thread.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by jaa »

helenazar

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #222 on: July 17, 2005, 11:04:51 AM »
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I wondered about that, since they did not have any documentation for Gertrude.


Considering that you are so big on logic, you should probably understand that the exact mtDNA match between Carl Maucher and AA could not possibly have been a random coincidence...

etonexile

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #223 on: July 17, 2005, 11:15:18 AM »
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Considering that you are so big on logic, you should probably understand that the exact mtDNA match between Carl Maucher and AA could not possibly have been a random coincidence...


Sadly...some will disregard such logic...."Conspiracy Theories Uber Alles..."

Finelly

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #224 on: July 17, 2005, 12:32:07 PM »
I think the point is that the exact mtdna match proves a maternal relationship, but does not tell us specifically what the relationship was.

On the other hand, it is only a matter of curiosity as to what the relationship was (cousins, siblings, etc), and has nothing to do with the FS/AN non-relationship.