Author Topic: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2  (Read 59758 times)

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Inquiring_Mind

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #240 on: July 17, 2005, 03:40:04 PM »
I am trying very hard to see everyone's point of view.

Please bear with me. I want to ask if this is how it works.

I have the same mtdna as my mother and her mother. Yes?

My grandmother had a sister(same  mother) who was very fruitful. She has 13 children. So her 13 children's mtdna would match mine?

Ten of the 13 were daughters. They had at least 5 children apiece. So would those 50+ people have the same mtdna as I?

We have lost track of this branch of the family basically because of the large number of people involved.

So let's say that 25 of the 50+ were women. And for illustration 10 of them are now mothers. Would these ten people have the same mtdna as I?

In just 3 generations from one woman were there about 70 or more people who have my mtdna? Many of these people live in my part of the state. But I would not recognize them or their marraige names at this point.

I think Bear is saying that during FS's time many people went missing. Many people also didn't stray too far from where they were born. People had large families.

So this is why I question if AA was FS or relative to FS.

Does mtdna mutate in three or four generations or would the children of the ten match mine 99% or would there be differences?

Thanks


Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #241 on: July 17, 2005, 04:38:55 PM »
Did Grossmann murder FS?

Quote

...in part]....
Since  all I have is a 3/4 page mention of Grossmann from a book about murderers, Encyclopedia of Murder by Wilson and Pitman, I can't give you much more than I already have.

p. 243-4

"GROSSMANN, Georg Karl

"German mass-murderer, born in Neurueppin in 1863, who, like Denke, commited sudice before his execution."

"The case has many resemblances to the Denke murders.  In August 1921 the owner of a top-storey flat in Berlin near the Silesian railway terminus heard sounds of a sstruggle coming from the kitchen and called police. They found on Grossmann's kitchen bed (camp bed) the trussed-up carcass of a recently killed girl.....  He picked up girls with great regularity (in fact, he seldom spent a night alone).  He killed many of these sleeping partners and sold the bodies for meat, disposing the unsaleable parts in the river.  (The case becme known as the Die Braut auf der Stulle-- 'the bread and butter brides', since a companion for the night is known as a 'bride' in Germany.) At the time of his arrest, evidence was found which indicated that three women had been killed and dismembered in the past three weeks."

"...It is of interest that Grossmann was indirectly invovled in the famous 'Anastasia case....  At one point it was annouced that "Anastasia" was really an imposter named Franziska Schamzkovski, a Polish girl from Buetow in Pomerania.  Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski".... "

"...The number of his victims will never be known, but they may well have exceeded Haarmann's total of fifty, since he was 'in business' throughout the war until 1921...."

AGRBear


Let me repeat this part of the entry:

>> Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski".... "<<

What other evidence is there which points to the fact that FS was murdered and could not have been AA?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #242 on: July 17, 2005, 05:00:01 PM »
I may have worn Helen's patience thin, again, by not  folding up my books and say I am in full agreement. So,  she's probably off trying to wonder how we can be so stubborn.    So,  I dug around and found this quote which you can follow to the discussion:

Quote

If this is the case, then it wouldn't matter that Carl M.'s mother was not FS's full sister, all it ould matter is that they are maternally related: they would still have identical mtDNA.


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #243 on: July 17, 2005, 05:05:34 PM »
Then let me repeat again, no. She died in Charlottesville, VA in 1984 at age 88.

There is no evidence at all other than a diary with the wrong name and an assumption guess on a missing persons case which of course later proved wrong. FS was AA. Must be a pretty dull summer if this is being dug back up again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Lanie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #244 on: July 17, 2005, 05:07:29 PM »
Quote
Then let me repeat again, no. She died in Charlottesville, VA in 1984 at age 88.

There is no evidence at all other than a diary with the wrong name and an assumption guess on a missing persons case which of course later proved wrong. FS was AA. Must be a pretty dull summer if this is being dug back up again.


Here here.

And "Sasnovzki" sounds nothing like the pronounciation of Schanskowska.  My stepmother, who is of Polish descent and knows the language, looked at me funny when I asked her if they sound similar at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Lanie »

lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #245 on: July 17, 2005, 05:08:09 PM »
I found this, which is interesting balderdash...

Another post-WWI-German degenerate that made a living selling human flesh. Georg, a horrifying individual, was acquainted with every kind of perversion, even bestiality. A former butcher, after nights of heavy drinking, he would bring prostitutes home, have sex with them, and chop them into pieces. The next day he would peddle their flesh as beef or pork.

He was arrested in August, 1921, when his landlord summoned the police to his door following a loud altercation. Inside his pad they found a freshly butchered lass ready to be chopped up. They also found evidence of at least three other divvied up girls. The mad butcher laughed when he was given the death sentence and proceeded to hang himself in jail.

Some believe that one of Georg's victims was Anastasia, the Russian grand duchess who escaped the Bolshevik firing squad and assumed the identity of the Polish peasant girl, Franziska Schamzkovski.

http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/serialkillers/grossmann.htm

That is the first time I have ever seen it mentioned that AN assumed the identity of FS. Wild, huh????

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #246 on: July 17, 2005, 05:19:12 PM »
While digging around I found the two following quotes which relate to this thread.

Quote
... [ in part]...
Helen,
The accepted number of generations of mtDNA staying intact before one mutation is 20. Newer studies show it "MIGHT" be as soon as 10-12.

Jeremy. What Helen was trying to say is that, yes, at some point WAY back we "were related" (to be very specific we "are" related but so FAR back as to essentially NOT be related.
The explanation is that in some family lines, the mtDNA does not mutate at all, and remains exactly the same for like 200 generations, so that out of every 100 people, 4 would have the same mtDNA, but for all intents and purposes have the same common maternal ancestor so far back in time that they are 'not related' biologically speaking (ie: their NUCLEAR DNA would have no common relations).

....


Quote
That is exactly my point, thanks for noticing. See, Dear Ms Bear keeps harping on the lack of maternal relation of Carl Maucher. There are only 3, count em 3 possibilities since the mtDNA match is exact.
1. Carl Maucher and AA WERE maternally related (probablilty 96%)
2. CM and AA were NOT maternally related but had matching mtDNA (4%)
3. Someone SWITCHED the "real" AA sample with one conventiently exactly matching Carl Maucher. So, the answer is WHY? and probability of this is ZERO unless and until substantial and concrete evidence of WHO did it, HOW they managed to do it, WHEN they actually did it and WHY they did it can be demonstrated beyond "well maybe".
AND don't forget, AA is STILL excluded from being AN UNLESS and until #3 can be proven.
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #247 on: July 17, 2005, 05:25:41 PM »
That is interesting.

Guess the author was looking at something we haven't seen in evidence, yet.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #248 on: July 17, 2005, 05:27:14 PM »
I guess it could could shed a different light on the question of who coached AA.

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #249 on: July 17, 2005, 05:33:56 PM »
Quote
I guess it could could shed a different light on the question of who coached AA.


Think I'll leave this to other posters for comment

As to the name being similar or not similar.   If you go to a genealogy site dealing with Poland and enter "Sasnovski" you will be shown a very long list in which "Schanzkowa" is, also, shown.

Remember,  Grossmann wasn't Polish,  he was German and was spelling a Polish name the way he thought it was spelled.

daveK and I had this discussion on another thread when he claimed AA anf FS must be the same person  because she was the only one missing, and,  I reminded him that FS was the only one missing with with the name "Schanzkowa" [Sasnovski].

Since one of my hobbies is genealogy,  I have become acquainted with the use of the "soundex".  My one ancestor's name is spelled 15 different ways.  So far the records found show seven different spellings.  Had I not used soundex I may have missed finding them.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #250 on: July 17, 2005, 05:43:01 PM »
I understand Bear. You would not believe the different spellings I have found for my last name while doing family research.
Not to mention Grossman could have mis-spelled the name.

Finelly

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #251 on: July 17, 2005, 06:58:20 PM »
Be interesting to see all of the investigative police reports.

The spelling of the name is immaterial.  Particularly since the police apparently told the S family that FS was a victim.

WHat this would mean to me is that FS was not AA, but AA was still a member of the S family and not AN......yet another twist in this mystery!

lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #252 on: July 17, 2005, 07:27:09 PM »
Quote
Be interesting to see all of the investigative police reports.

The spelling of the name is immaterial.  Particularly since the police apparently told the S family that FS was a victim.

WHat this would mean to me is that FS was not AA, but AA was still a member of the S family and not AN......yet another twist in this mystery!


Exactly. That would mean that FS (who was apparently murdered) could have been AN.  Now that is an interesting twist.

Finelly

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #253 on: July 17, 2005, 07:28:55 PM »
OMG, Lexi!  That would prove my theory!

FS was not AA

AA was not AN

FS WAS AN!

<giggle>

lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #254 on: July 17, 2005, 07:47:24 PM »
Yes, it would.  ;D

However, someone mentioned fingerprints on one of these threads. I think it was mentioned that there are fingerprints from AN that could be lifted off an old text book.
I also think I read that Penny is trying to locate FS's fingerprints at the various assylums in which she was committed. It would be really interesting to compare those two sets of prints.