Author Topic: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2  (Read 49973 times)

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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #255 on: July 17, 2005, 08:04:01 PM »
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I understand Bear. You would not believe the different spellings I have found for my last name while doing family research.
Not to mention Grossman could have mis-spelled the name.


You are right, lexi4...I found one of my relative names Bonsembiante (I was doing genealogical research) spelled in nine different ways. I wouldn't post all of them, but I must said that one of them was...Bonaparte!!!  ??? I read a claim about Bonaparte and Bonsembiante being the same family.  ;D I read it as Bonsemblanc, Bonaplanta and other variations...

And how about this Grossman guy? Pretty wild...

RealAnastasia.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #256 on: July 17, 2005, 08:11:19 PM »
RealAnstascia,
It is pretty wild and interesting to dicuss. I had never even considered anything like this. It is probably a long shot, but it has helped me understand why you and Bear have insisted that all the evidence needs to be looked at.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #257 on: July 17, 2005, 10:27:11 PM »
The Berlin police were interested in all the new methods, one of which was fingerprints.

I believe when a person was in an asylum,  they had photographs taken as well as fingerprints.

Germans love to keep records, unless they were destroyed during one of the wars,  I assume FS.s fingerprints are probably some place.

If I remember correctly,  Penny had a copy of AA's fingerprints.

I'll have to go digging around for that post.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #258 on: July 17, 2005, 10:31:43 PM »
Are AN's finger prints available?  I think I read that they were.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #259 on: July 17, 2005, 10:45:13 PM »
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Grand Duchess Anastasia's excercise/lesson books were purchased at auction by Ian Lilburn for the express purpose of locating her fingerprints.  AGR Bear is correct in stating that the "lifting" of invisible prints might well have destroyed the books through the process used back then, so the decision was taken not to pursue this avenue of investigation, but rather to look for visible prints memorialized in inkblots.  Anastasia having been a neat and tidy student, left no blots on her books at all, so the books were useless then for fingerprint purposes.  

Prints could be raised from the books now, and I think that this would be interesting -- just for the sake of having Anastasia's fingerprints, which might serve some positive purpose should another claimant appear.  Of course, there will be many sets of prints on the pages of those books, but still I think it would be a good idea, as the real Anastasia would be the only person who could match one set of the prints.

The exercise books are still owned by Ian Lilburn; however, they were never returned to him by the German court, which retained them in an archival situation for their own purposes.  How accessible they might be after all this time, I have no idea.  I think that Ian did try to retrieve them at some point, but his request was refused.


Greg and I have copies of Fraulein Unbekannt's fingerprint card.  These fingerprints were taken by the Berlin police in the immediate aftermath of the suicide attempt/fall in the Landwehr Canal.  We don't have any fingerprint records from Franziska Schanzkowska.  At some point, we will be pursuing the possibility of there being extant fingerprint records in one or more of the hospitals where Franziska spent time, but I do think that if there were any obvious records, they would have been accessed by the court at the time of the trial -- and I don't recall off the top of my head that Franziska's fingerprints were ever an issue at trial.

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline lexi4

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #260 on: July 17, 2005, 11:12:19 PM »
So it could be possible to compare AN's fingerprints with FS at some point. I find it curious that the German police won't release the book to its owner. Maybe they don't want anyone comparing fingerprints.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline etonexile

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #261 on: July 18, 2005, 10:08:48 AM »
Y'all have such energy and focus....kudos... ;)

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #262 on: July 18, 2005, 10:22:24 AM »
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Here here.

And "Sasnovzki" sounds nothing like the pronounciation of Schanskowska.  My stepmother, who is of Polish descent and knows the language, looked at me funny when I asked her if they sound similar at all.


I think that the original spelling is closer to                      Czenskowski, though we all (myself included) tend to spell it Schanskowski  here.

And, what's interesting , is that Felix's daughter styles herself Waltraud Von Czenskowski (a).

There's that "scion of the old Polish nobility" connection again. ;)  

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #263 on: July 18, 2005, 10:34:07 AM »
There are various letters which are interchangable and "Sch" is a sound that can be "C"  or "S" which cut the name down to another possible spelling like "Sanskowski" and since the "w" can be a "v" the name can be spelled "Sanskovski" and so it goes.

To pronouce a word in German depends upon the German's dialect.  

Also,  I have no idea how educated Grossmann was or even if he, himself, was from Berlin or elsewhere.  [Note: Missed this, article said he was from Neurueppin but I'm not familar with this place].

The only thing we seem to be able to say, the Berlin police thought it was a name which linked FS who's family was told they believed Grossmann had murdered her.

Also, if the German court had seen enough information which indicated AA was FS then they would have been able to rule that AA couldn't have been GD Anastasia because she was FS, BUT, they did not.  And they certainly had a lot of information after ALL those years.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline etonexile

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #264 on: July 18, 2005, 10:36:37 AM »
Is there any way to find how many females of the age of AA in the S family who were missing after WWI...3...6...8...47...?...one?

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #265 on: July 18, 2005, 11:15:18 AM »
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So it could be possible to compare AN's fingerprints with FS at some point. I find it curious that the German police won't release the book to its owner. Maybe they don't want anyone comparing fingerprints.


I don't think that's it.  From what I understand from Ian, the books are retained in evidence by the German Court System because the case is -- or was, I don't know if the status changed when Anastasia Manahan died -- considered unresolved in some aspects.

If memory serves, Ian applied for the return of his property directly after the conclusion of the case in the 60s.  If the case was considered unresolved at that time, it certainly could have been reclassified either at the time of AM's death, or after the DNA tests in 94.  But I imagine that there has to be application for a judicial review of some sort -- and who would apply?  Maybe Ian, sure -- but he's well into his 80s now, and while still retaining his interest in and loyalty to AM, he has rather moved on to other interests, the most immediate of which is the history and legacy of his German University fraternity.
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #266 on: July 18, 2005, 11:26:27 AM »
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That is interesting.

Guess the author was looking at something we haven't seen in evidence, yet.

AGRBear



Or maybe the author just has the story turned around -- clearly his/her focus is on serial killers and not on the stories of the victims.
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #267 on: July 18, 2005, 11:36:46 AM »
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I also think I read that Penny is trying to locate FS's fingerprints at the various assylums in which she was committed. It would be really interesting to compare those two sets of prints.


I'm not actively searching at this point, as I have two other book projects that I'm working on right now.  

It would be very interesting to compare the two sets of prints, wouldn't it?  Either there would be a match -- in which case, another item pro Anastasia Manahan being Franziska Schanzkowska.  Or there wouldn't be a match -- in which case -- what?  Certainly an item in the favor of those who do not agree that AM was FS... But either way, I predict much more fodder for the conspiracy theory team: planted cards, mislabelled cards, how can we know they're authentic....  ;D

"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #268 on: July 18, 2005, 01:19:40 PM »
Yah, ok, Penny, you're not actively searching right now because you have two other books you're working on.

In my opinion, that is selfish.  It's like you think it's all about YOU and YOUR projects.  What about US?  What about OUR burning curiosity?  Huh?  Huh?

<sheesh.  SOME people......>

<grin>

Offline stepan

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
« Reply #269 on: July 18, 2005, 04:12:26 PM »
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I think that the original spelling is closer to                      Czenskowski, though we all (myself included) tend to spell it Schanskowski  here.

 And, what's interesting , is that Felix's daughter styles herself Waltraud Von Czenskowski (a).

There's that "scion of the old Polish nobility" connection again. ;)  

 
AA often styled herself Frau Von Tshaikovski in Germany. I often have thought about how similar the names Schanzkowski and Tshaikovski are.
Oh yes old Polish nobility.  Now it´said the family were mennonites from Holland.  Confusing to say he least. ;)