Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2

[helenazar]

Penny, did FS's medical chart mention anything else about her GYN issues, one way or another? If they didn't mention anything about her not being a virgin, wouldn't they have then said that she was if they actually examined her gynecologically? You would expect that if they had examined her to that extent, they would say something one way or another in the chart and not just omit that they did it ... Maybe they just didn't think any of that was relevant at the time they examined her, therefore didn't do it. I don't know what the standard was back then as far as physical exams for a specific conditions, but maybe because it was an exam to specifically determine the damage she may have sustained from the explosion, they did not examine anything that was not relevant to it... Did her medical chart contain her complete health record or just info from that one examination?

[Mgmstl]

BUT, when the doctors examined her after her suicide attempt, they thought she had delivered a child at one point. That doesn't mean with all certainty she did have a child.  I have always doubted that she did have one.

Also, about Massie, I want to state that it was late when I made that post last night and wasn't thinking too clearly, however, I very much agree with Penny that he shouldn't have said  AA is FS.  

[Malenkaya]

BUT, when the doctors examined her after her suicide attempt, they thought she had delivered a child at one point. That doesn't mean with all certainty she did have a child.  I have always doubted that she did have one.

The doctor's medical conclusion was that she had given birth to a child at some point.  This was their find during the original examination when she first arrived and they had no clue who she was.  So what makes you think the doctors were wrong?  Why would you doubt that?  What do you know that they didn't?

[Denise]

Kurth merely says that the doctor's said AA wasn't a virgin.  Does anyone have a source for the doctor's saying she had given birth to a child?

[Mgmstl]

Actually Malenkaya, Denise beat me to the punch, all I have ever read is that she was not a virgin according to the Dr.'s and that I never had read that there was any proof that she did give birth.

Penny could you enlighten me on this...thanks

[Denise]

One thing I want to bring up is that Annie suggested that if FS had miscarried there would still be evidence due to the condition of her uterus, based on experience of her own grandmother.  I personally don't see why doctors who are checking the health of a mental patient (AA) are going to be so thorough a ob-gyn exam (in 1920!) to discover such a thing or not.  

I guess what I want to say, is do we have medical proof that AA really gave birth?  Other than her fairy tale about baby Alexander.  No claimant has ever come forward caiming to be this person.  Obviously, since we know AA wasn't AN, this is a moot point.  However, at the height of the AA fame, wouldn't you think there would be a pretender if she ever had a child at all?

[helenazar]

BUT, when the doctors examined her after her suicide attempt, they thought she had delivered a child at one point. That doesn't mean with all certainty she did have a child.  I have always doubted that she did have one.

Michael, I was actually referring to FS's examination after she was in the explosion accident, not to AA's examination after she jumped off the bridge. This is assuming that they are two different individuals...  

No claimant has ever come forward caiming to be this person. ...at the height of the AA fame, wouldn't you think there would be a pretender if she ever had a child at all?

It's possible that this child didn't know whose son he was at the time, and maybe found out much later, or maybe never found out... Maybe he was just abandoned and never told who his mother was, or maybe he was told but never made the connection between his mother and AA ... So this is why he never came out...

One thing I want to bring up is that Annie suggested that if FS had miscarried there would still be evidence due to the condition of her uterus, based on experience of her own grandmother.

Does anyone know if having an abortion would also have the same affect on the uterus as having carried a child to full term (at least as far as they could tell in an exam?)

[helenazar]

Kurth merely says that the doctor's said AA wasn't a virgin.  Does anyone have a source for the doctor's saying she had given birth to a child?

That's a good point, Denise. I think I remember this too, and the fact that AA said that she had a child, but come to think it of it, I can't remember whether the doctors explicitly stated that this woman had a child.... Maybe we are just assuming that this was the case, because of her own story... Anyone know if they medically confirmed this fact? There is big difference berween not being a virgin and having given birth, there must be a way they could have established this, but unless they specifically stated this in the medical chart, then we can't assume that this was the case... For obvious reasons we can't just go by AA's story of having given birth to a child...

[Annie]

Does anyone know if having an abortion would also have the same affect on the uterus as having carried a child to full term (at least as far as they could tell in an exam?)

I would say it would be the same as a miscarriage, an incomplete pregnancy. It would also show the same spot on the uterus.

But as Denise said, I don't think any mental hospital would bother to do a complete GYN exam on her, especially not back in 1920. Seeing if she were a virgin or not may be one thing, but a complete internal exam is something else.

[helenazar]

...he shouldn't have said  AA is FS.  

Yes, he probably shouldn't have used those terms, but at the same time, to be fair to Massie, Peter Kurth continuously refers to Anna Anderson as Anastasia in his book - not as "possible Anastasia". Isn't that the same thing as Massie referring to AA as Franziska S? In fact, it is even more presumtuous, because we now know that AA wasn't AN, while we don't know that she wasn't FS! So techinically, they are both guilty of presumption!  

[helenazar]

Yup, it would have the same effect. Full-term birth, premature birth, abortion and all but the very, very earliest of miscarriages would alter the shape of the cervical opening -- according to my doctor.

So then it would be possible that FS could have gotten pregnant and had an early abortion, so no one among her family or friends knew about the pregnancy?

[helenazar]

I believe that there was a medical examination at some point -- I'm not sure of the date and I'm foggy on the doctor's name, but I do know that he confirmed that she had given birth at some point in her life.
 

 

Do you remember if this information was in PK's book, or somewhere else? I have the book in front of me now, but I can't find anything about that...

[Malenkaya]

Does anyone know if having an abortion would also have the same affect on the uterus as having carried a child to full term (at least as far as they could tell in an exam?)

I don't know about that, but I had a miscarriage last year, and during a later exam the doctor told me there was nothing that would have indicated I had ever had a pregnancy.  

I miscarried at the end of my second month, so from that information I would have to say if a doctor detected that AA had been pregnant, she would have had to carry the pregnancy further than I did.

I asked my gynecologist about this, and he told me that it's an easy thing to see and doesn't require a thorough examination:  After giving birth, the opening in the cervix changes from a round shape to an oval one.  Ever so occasionally, someone who has given birth retains the round-shaped opening, but my doctor had never heard of someone who hasn't given birth having an oval cervical opening.

Of course, through this method, it couldn't be told how many times someone had been pregnant -- but the bare fact that a birth had occurred -- even a miscarriage -- would be evident.

Very interesting.  My doctor was referring to the uterus itself - I wasn't aware the cervix made a permanent change.  You learn something new every day.  

So basically, from an exam, a doctor would know whether or not a woman has ever been pregnant before.  There is no distinction from a birth, a miscarriage or an abortion.

So AA's doctors said she had given birth.  I guess what we can get from that, from what Penny's doctor said, is that at the very least AA had been pregnant at some point in her life.  I know we can't trust her story just because she says so, but I tend to believe she made up the story of having a baby because she really had a baby at some point.  If she knew the doctors had been able to get that from her exam, she probably figured she needed to work it into her story in some way.

Anastasia

[helenazar]

I don't know about that, but I had a miscarriage last year, and during a later exam the doctor told me there was nothing that would have indicated I had ever had a pregnancy.  

I miscarried at the end of my second month, so from that information I would have to say if a doctor detected that AA had been pregnant, she would have had to carry the pregnancy further than I did.

Many women may not even realize that they are pregnant at two months yet. Perhaps FS had an abortion at 4 or even 5 months, it has been known to happen, and the pregnancy may not have been so obvious at that point yet... At that point, the cervix would probably show signs of having given birth.

In any case, we will never know, I suppose. And unless we can find the child Alexander and do the DNA testing that shows he is AA's son, then we will never really know about that either....

[Annie]

Many women may not even realize that they are pregnant at two months yet. Perhaps FS had an abortion at 4 or even 5 months, it has been known to happen, and the pregnancy may not have been so obvious at that point yet... At that point, the cervix would probably show signs of having given birth.

My Grandma had been 4 months along when she fell down the stairs and miscarried and the doctor could tell it same as a full term baby. So FS may have carried the baby at least that long before losing it or getting rid of it.

Here's another thing to consider: AA never had another child, so it is possible the miscarriage or abortion was damaging to her organs and left her infertile.

Malenkaya, I'm sorry about your miscarriage