Author Topic: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3  (Read 49832 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #225 on: March 09, 2007, 06:14:29 PM »
How frustrating...
I agree with Annie. Is it possible to keep this thread strictly about AA/FS?  ;D It would be awfully nice if anyone can share more information about the life of FS, I'm very interested in her. According to Massie's research, her family descended from the lower Polish nobility. Her father was impoverished, however, and a bit of a drunk. I understand that she was engaged at some point in her life, but the war claimed the life of her fiance (ack- I don't have the book here, so I'm merely relying on my poor memory!).

Yes I heard all this too. Her father died young from drinking. Her fiancee was killed in the war, the same time she was injured in the grenade factory explosion.

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I also saw FS's photograph on Peter Kurth's website. That photo alone can convince me that she's AA! ...Or maybe it's just me? But anyway, she looked quite pretty on that photo.

We've had this on so many threads, but if you haven't seen them, here you go:

AA left, FS right- same person!




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It would be also interesting to know if she and her fiance had a healthy, loving relationship. I hope to God they did; her life was lonely enough as it was.  :( At least she had a friend in her brother, right?...well, before she morphed into a grand duchess. I know that her brother was her favorite- does anyone have more info on him? Did he have any children? :(

I don't think she was that close to her family in the end, maybe just that one brother. Sadly I don't think there was any happiness in Franziska's life, and that's why she wanted to kill herself, then assume someone else's identity.

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Someone ought to write a book about her.

I'd love a book about FRANZISKA and how she was AA, NOT another book claiming AA was AN, please! ::)

But again, since everyone knows AA was FS now, I am sure her family should be able to claim the rights to her story, and get royalties from everything done on her since the DNA tests proved her identity, books, movies, plays, specials, etc.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #226 on: March 11, 2007, 01:14:27 AM »
New Timeline List - 18 Aug 2005   
 
>>>1896<<<  
Date  of birth:  
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland.  

>>>ca 1902/3  to ca 1912<<<
FS attended school and for some of the time or all of the time was in "Bytow, quite some distance from her family's house"
 
>>>1914<<<  
"In 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory."  
 
>>>1916<<<  
 
___ ___ 1916:  " In 1916, the young man" [FS], "was dating was killed on the western front."  
19 Sept 1916:  According to jeremy, this was the date FS was declared insane  
 
>>>19??<<<  
"Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged. She was taken in, almost as a charity case, by Frau Wingender, who gave her a room of her own, Incapable of working long periods, Franziska was in and out of sanatoria; in between, she remained bedridden at the Wingender's apartment, complaining of headaches, swallowing pills, and reading history books from the local library"  
 
1919  
Around Christmas time [25 Dec 1919] FS visited her family  
 
>>> 1920<<<  
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS  
 
Date reported missing:  
9 March 1920:  "...Berlin police were duly informed by the Wingenders, on March 9, that she had 'left, leaving no address.'"
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline scarlett_riviera

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #227 on: March 12, 2007, 02:36:33 AM »
Thanks for the timeline! Her fiance's death must have affected her greatly. :(
I do wonder if anyone will ever be interested in making a movie about her life, before she became AA and all. I don't know if that will be more marketable than "the riddle of AA", though. Still, there should be something out there about her- a documentary, a book- anything? I haven't seen anything from her descendants, except that very short interview on Massie's book.

In memory of Grand Duke Dimitri! The man had style.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #228 on: March 13, 2007, 09:47:53 AM »
You are welcome.

I am noat sure about Jeremy's statement that FS was actually declare "insane":
 

>>___ ___ 1916:  " In 1916, the young man" [FS], "was dating was killed on the western front." 
19 Sept 1916:  According to jeremy, this was the date FS was declared insane <<

I believe that some posters have told us that she was not declared insane but merely placed in an asylum due to a "nervous breakdown" after her boyfriend was killed.

Does anyone know where Jeremy found his information?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

ferrymansdaughter

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #229 on: April 18, 2007, 11:12:05 AM »
I have two questions really and maybe they should go in separate threads; if so, please advise.  Forgive me if either have already been discussed - I have read as many of the old posts as I can and also done a search, but can't find any detail.


1.    Is there any verifiable information about the purported fiance?    Any thoughts as to whether or not he actually existed?   I don't know where the story came from and I have never seen him named. 

2.    How many asylums was FS in prior to her disappearance and how detailed are the records?   What was the specific diagnosis and do you think that if she was assessed today she would be classified as "insane" rather than, say,clinically depressed or having a nervous breakdown?  (Any psychiatrists out there?)    Certainly in Britain  as late as the early 1950s there were women who were committed for all sorts of shocking reasons including so-called immorality - eg  because they had an illegitimate baby.  (This could also relate to the debate about whether or not FS had a baby?)


Thanks

Liz

Offline zackattack

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #230 on: April 18, 2007, 08:14:34 PM »
I have two questions really and maybe they should go in separate threads; if so, please advise.  Forgive me if either have already been discussed - I have read as many of the old posts as I can and also done a search, but can't find any detail.


1.    Is there any verifiable information about the purported fiance?    Any thoughts as to whether or not he actually existed?   I don't know where the story came from and I have never seen him named. 

2.    How many asylums was FS in prior to her disappearance and how detailed are the records?   What was the specific diagnosis and do you think that if she was assessed today she would be classified as "insane" rather than, say,clinically depressed or having a nervous breakdown?  (Any psychiatrists out there?)    Certainly in Britain  as late as the early 1950s there were women who were committed for all sorts of shocking reasons including so-called immorality - eg  because they had an illegitimate baby.  (This could also relate to the debate about whether or not FS had a baby?)


Thanks

Liz


Hi Liz

You should really contact Maurice Paul Remy,he keeps an archive on FS, as well as  members of Francisska's family, and the film maker Julian Nott. I gave all the contact info I have on them  to the FA. Ask him and  he might be able to help you in that area. Good luck! 

ferrymansdaughter

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #231 on: April 19, 2007, 06:46:03 AM »
Thanks.  I was specifically wondering if there was any published material I could access.   I have just ordered the Wilson/King book but haven't read much on the whole subject of the Romanovs for a few years so wasn't sure what was out there now.  My interest has lain dormant for a few years but now I have woken up again!

Liz

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #232 on: April 19, 2007, 06:43:37 PM »
Philip Remy's 1998 documentary is called Anastasia -- Zarentochter oder Hochstaplerin?.  Copies can occasionally be found on amazon.de, and as far as I know, it's German-language only.  Mine is in German anyway.

I first saw the film a few years ago, on a visit to Philip in Munich -- it was interesting to watch it with the film-maker sitting right next to me.  He kept stopping it to expand on the story and explain his production decisions.  I learned a hell of a lot about the Schanzkowskis and Franziska in days I spent with Remy -- he kindly allowed me to copy his archive for my research with Greg King (which is still on-going for the next book) and told me lots of traveller's tales about his adventures in research, but I can't recall if he ever mentioned the name of Franziska's fiance.  I'll have to look through the papers that he gave me, but I don't think it's there.  It's certainly the sort of detail that I would remember, if I had ever heard it.

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ferrymansdaughter

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #233 on: April 23, 2007, 09:54:20 AM »
Penny, thanks for that. 

I have just started  learning German (I work for a German company - but in London) so maybe I'll wait a bit until I know more and then try and get a copy!

Am now about a third of the way through your book - absolutely fascinating and full of so much detail I didn't know.    What a huge amount of work you and Greg must have done to get all this information out to the rest of us.

Liz

Offline Lemur

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
« Reply #234 on: April 24, 2007, 09:23:05 AM »
One of the problems with research on FS is that so many writers want to keep the AA=AN myth alive (because it's maybe more fun and interesting?) I'm afraid hard evidence on FS may have been lost or even supressed over time, especially if it were damning to AA's claim.  We will probably never know the entire story.

Offline EPHMOC

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Perhaps someone who is Polish reading this can answer the questions about the name.  I know "ski" means "son of" but is their a meaning to "owska"?

"ski" does NOT exactly (literally) mean "son of" - it is strictly speaking a suffix which makes a possessive adjective from a noun and therefore can mean "son of". For example - lets take one of the most popular polish surnames "Kowalski". It's made by adding "ski" suffix to the verb "Kowal" (with means "blacksmith"). So we can translate adjective "kowalski" as "sth conserning or connected with a blacksmith". We can predicate "kowalski" of things - e.g. "młot kowalski" means "a smith's hammer" ("młot"="hammer"). When we talk about people esp. children "kowalski" would mean "son of the blacksmith (e.g. the balcksmith from our village)". So "Adam Kowalski" could be translated as "Adam - a son of the blacksmith".

Siffix "ska" is simply a feminine form, witch makes an feminine adjective from the noun. So "kowalska" also means "sth conserning or connected with a blacksmith" and could be predicated of things - eg. "sztuka kowalska" means "the Blacksmith's Art" (sztuka=art - in Polish "art" is a feminine noun). Similary, "Anna Kowalska" could be translated as "Anna - a daughter of the blacksmith".

Sometimes suffixes "ski" or "ska" can't be added so simply to the noun (for grammatical reasons), and takes form of "owski" or "owska".

Lets go back to FS: Szanckowska is a name made by adding "owska" suffix to the root "szanck" (or "schanzk" in german transliteration). Of course, if we want to determine the root that name, we have to determine the right form of it (Schanzkowska, Schankowska, Chankowska, Schenckowska, Czenkowski etc.)

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 Breaking the name down would be "Schenck" or "Schansk" or Scanko with the root word in Old German meaning Scenko.... ?

"Szanck" ("szan-" is pronounced just like english "shun") sounds German not Slavic, so it seams to me very probable, that it really HAS Old German root, but I'm not competent to say anything more about it. In Polish there's no such noun as "szanc" or "szank". There is a noun "szynk" (dated word which means "drink bar" or "drinking den") - I know a person whose name is "szynkowska". On the other hand ther was a well-known (in Poland) graphic artist whose name was Szancer, but it's a German name.

By the way - I've not met anyone whose name was "Sasnowski", but surname "Sosnowski" is very common in Poland (it mean "sth conserning or connected with a pine" -- it could be the name of a lumberjack family).
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 03:58:02 AM by EPHMOC »

Offline EPHMOC

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Take a look at the Polish forms and set aside the Spanish, and other countries etc..  Example: SZWANKOWSKI

You can meet many people in Pomerania whose name is Szwankowski - maybe that's the original form of FS's surname...

Offline EPHMOC

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If the root word is Old German, than yes, the family was German.

I can't agree with you. If the root word is Old German th family COULD be German, but also COULD be a Polish family. The root of the name could had been translated into German by Prussian administration. In Poland there's a well-known case of Józef Tischner (polish philosopher) family name. His grandfather's name was Stolarz (eng. "carpenter"). When he joined the Austro-Hungarian Army, Austiran clerk translated his surname into German "Tischler"  (because of misspelling it later became TischNer). Similar events could happen in Pomerania...

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However, I can not say for sure because I don't know Polish and there might well be a word in Polish which would be the "root" and mean something entirely different.

As I previously siad it means nothing...

« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 05:41:55 AM by EPHMOC »

Offline EPHMOC

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If you can't find a family in records in this village Bororwihlas...
...
 Do we by any chance know what the population of this village was back in the late 1800's/early 1900's? If it was relatively small, I bet that cousins often intermarried... Is 'Bororwihlas' the correct spelling? It doesn't look right...

You're absolutely right! It doesn't look right :)

"Bororwihlas" is absolutely wrong. Correct polish spelling is: "Borowy Las", and Kashubian: "Bòròwë Las".

If you want to know where it is, use google maps (54° 17' 55'' N 17° 43' 52'' E)
http://wikimapia.org/#y=54298611&x=17731111&z=12&l=28&m=h

The village is small even today (144 peple in 2006) but I can't say anything about it's population in the late 1800's/early 1900's...
 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 05:42:42 AM by EPHMOC »

Offline EPHMOC

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>>>1896<<<  
Date  of birth:  
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland.  

See my message on Borowy Las:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,620.msg257373.html#msg257373

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>>>ca 1902/3  to ca 1912<<<
FS attended school and for some of the time or all of the time was in "Bytow, quite some distance from her family's house"

Bytów is about 13 miles (21 km) from Borowy Las (as the crow flies)...
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 07:08:47 AM by EPHMOC »