Author Topic: Questions about Alexandra's Name?  (Read 74360 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tian79

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 84
    • View Profile
Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« on: April 13, 2004, 05:21:39 AM »
What was the correct title of Alix?
I’ve seen many versions, such as, Alix/Alice of Hesse, Hessen-Darmstadt, Hesse and Rhein etc.

Nanny_Orchard

  • Guest
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2004, 04:32:38 PM »
Why were the Empress Marie and the Empress Alexandra each assigned the patronymic Feodorovna? Yes, I understand that they were were baptized into the Orthodox Church in the Cathederal of St. Feodor, which is why they were 'daughters of Feodor.'  

But why weren't they given the patrynymics that reflected their real fathers' names, Christian and Ernst, respectively? What would those names have been - maybe Marie Kristianova and Alexandra Ernstnova?

Offline Lanie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1533
    • View Profile
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2004, 09:14:31 PM »
Alexandra's father was Ludwig, not Ernst.  I suppose they wanted them to have very "Russian" patronyms, thus the Feodorovna.

Offline Dennis

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 180
  • Royal Student
    • View Profile
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2004, 10:43:35 PM »
The patronymic name Feodorovna was given to most, if not all, the foreign princesses who converted to Orthodoxy.  It distinguished them from those who did not, Maria Pavlovna the Elder, and Mavra, wife of KR, being two examples.

The Empresses were not rebaptized when they joined the Russian Orthodox Church.  Their Lutheran baptisms were fully recognized; they were chrismated (confirmed/anointed) with the "holy oils."

The name Feodor actually refers to an ancient Icon, one that was very important to the IF.  I think there is another thread on this.

Perhaps Grand Duchess Ella can answer this one:  What was Ella's Russian name BEFORE she became Orthodox?
Dennis

Offline Lanie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1533
    • View Profile
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2004, 10:45:03 PM »
I believe Ella was "the Grand Duchess Elizaveta Feodorovna"--then after becoming Orthodox was "the truly believing Grand Duchess Elizaveta Feodorovna".

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2004, 09:20:07 AM »
Ella was born "Her Grand Ducal Highness Elisabeth Alexandra Louise Alice of Hesse and by Rhine"

Offline Dennis

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 180
  • Royal Student
    • View Profile
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2004, 12:02:22 PM »
Yes, but what was her Russian name from the time of her marriage to Serge, but before her conversion to Orthodoxy almost 10 years later?
Dennis

Nanny_Orchard

  • Guest
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2004, 02:43:38 PM »
Lanie, you're right! Of course Alix's father was Ludwig, or Louis, as I believe the British royal family called him. Duh! I'm slapping my forehead with the heel of my hand in exasperation over such a stupid error. (Note to self: too much Christmas eggnog dulls the brain.)

Thanks to everybody who posted to explain. But it still seems odd to rename foreign princesses in honor of a saint, instead of letting them call themselves by their real patronymics. Seems disrespectful to their fathers. Ah well, autres temps, autre moeurs.


Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2004, 03:02:40 PM »
Actually, Feodorovna was chosen not for the saint, but for Feodor Romanov, considered the founder of the Romanov dynasty. Taking his name as a patryonomic was a sign of respect and becoming a "daughter" of the House of Romanov by marrying into it. Ella was known as Elizaveta Feodorovna from the day of her marriage.
(according to Bob).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2004, 09:57:17 PM »
According to Belochka,

The first Romanov Tsar's father was called Feodor Nikitovich Romanov, who became the Patriarch of Moscow after his return from Polish captivity. He assumed a de-facto monarchic relationship with his son, and became known as the 'Great Sovereign'.

The patronymic Feodorovich was given to Empress Marie and Alexandra to acknowledge the spiritual connection to this Patriarch and to the Romanov dynasty itself when these women converted to the Orthodox faith.

All their Lutheran associations was renounced during their Orthodox baptism, which included formal acceptance of an Russian Orthodox patronymic. This acceptance is not disrespectful in these circumstances. It was a powerful symbolic and spiritual act which these women entered into willingly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2004, 10:50:02 PM »
Quote
Yes, but what was her Russian name from the time of her marriage to Serge, but before her conversion to Orthodoxy almost 10 years later?


Elizaveta did not have to convert to Orthodoxy at or prior to her marriage to a Romanov Grand Duke, unlike  Marie and Alexandra whose fiances were next in line to the throne.

She accepted the Orthodox patronymic when she entered the House of Romanov at the time of her marriage to Grand Duke Sergei.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2004, 11:25:45 PM »
Quote
The Empresses were not rebaptized when they joined the Russian Orthodox Church.  Their Lutheran baptisms were fully recognized; they were chrismated (confirmed/anointed) with the "holy oils."


I have to partially disagree with you Dennis,

The acceptance of the Orthodox faith means that any prior religious beliefs must be formally renounced at the baptismal ceremony itself. This is done in the Church and before all who attend, by spitting three times to show contempt of all that preceded before.

Both Alexandra and Marie had to curse their Lutheran belief before they could be accepted into the Orthodox Church. After this first step, could they be annointed with oil on the forehead.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline RichC

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2004, 11:52:32 PM »
I visited the Nicholas & Alexandra exhibition at the Newark Museum last week and the docent told us that when Alexandra converted to Orthodoxy, she was excused from "cursing" her religion.  She did not want to do it and an exception was made.

Perhaps one of our resident experts can tell us if this is really the case, or not.


Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2004, 12:23:41 AM »
One does not say it is "heresy" the correct words used are Ya otritsayu (I disclaim).


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Questions about Alexandra's Name?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2004, 12:55:14 AM »
Hi RichC,

I just checked Nikolai's diary entry for 21 October 1894, it seems that Alix was indeed annointed (Miropomazana) in Livadia one day after Alexander III's death. This abbreviated conversion could be due to a matter of expediency rather than procedural niceties. It seems that your docent's information was correct and I was mistaken.

Dagmar, however did undergo the full conversion ceremony and did curse the Lutheran faith (Mother of Russia @ p 39)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/