Author Topic: Rasputin's "Powers" and His Family Name.  (Read 55501 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Rasputin
« Reply #135 on: February 08, 2005, 08:10:08 AM »
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Helen,
I don't know where you got that information. According to Spirdovitch's bio the family name was Rasputin, and he was born with that name, as was his brother.
Where did you find that about him not being born Grigory Efimovich Rasputin? There is no mention in Spiridovitch's bio of any other family name.


I am bringing this up again because of something I heard this morning. I was listening to a Russian history audio course, given by Dr Mark Steinberg, a Russian History Professor at the University of Illinois (he is also the author of THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS). When he was talking about Rasputin, he said exactly what I posted before, that "his real name was 'Novikh' and 'Rasputin' was a nickname given to him because it means 'debauched'". Now, just because Steinberg said this doesn't automatically make it true of course, but my point is, even a serious historian accepted this as fact - enough to use in his lecture, so perhaps it is possible this was the case? As I mentioned before, I came across this information in several different places, not just in Erickson's book....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Rasputin's last name
« Reply #136 on: February 08, 2005, 08:14:36 AM »
I have come across several sources (some pretty reliable historians) that claim that Rasputin's real name was Grigory Novikh and that "Rasputin" was not his real last name but a nickname given to him because of it means "debauched". Some other sources give contradictory information. Does anyone know for sure?  Thanks.

Helen

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Re: Rasputin's last name
« Reply #137 on: February 08, 2005, 09:42:58 AM »
Helen, am sure you recall that we discussed this on another thread.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=rasputin;action=display;num=1104946353;start=104#104

I posted:
There need not be any confusion. Spridovitch had all the Okhrana investigation materials into Rasputin and his background. This is FIRST HAND source material. Remember all the government and church birth records and marriage records were all intact at that point.
From "Raspoutine"  
"The family name of Rasputin is quite widespread in Occidental Siberia and among those bearing that name there are many who are unrelated by parental ties."
 
"In the village (of Pokrovskoe) lived Grigori's parents: his father, the peasant Efim Andreievich Rasputin and his mother Anna Egorovna.  His father tilled the soil and was also experienced as a carriage driver. His mother concerned herself with tending the house. For Siberia, they were not poor peasants, but neither were they rich."  Spiridovitch goes on to describe the house the family owned in great detail, so the must also have been property ownership and tax records.  IF there was another family name, surely Spiridovitch would have known of it.
 
I can state with much certainty that Carrolly Erikson was incorrect in her statement.

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Re: Rasputin's last name
« Reply #138 on: February 08, 2005, 09:47:26 AM »
Helen,
I just saw your other posting. Check the bibliography of those books. VERY few modern "scholars" have actually read Spiridovitch, as it is a VERY rare book and never printed in English. I think these people believe what they are saying to be true, but have not done enough "due diligence" as it were. Frankly, I think the Spiridovitch, who was highly interested in Rasputin even while R. was alive, and who had all the Okhrana background investigation reports to be the most reliable in this regard. I would suggest that those who disagree on this point should provide their sources.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Rasputin's last name
« Reply #139 on: February 08, 2005, 09:51:22 AM »
I don't think Steinberg used Spiridovich in his bibliography, I have no idea what his source was for this particular thing. I am just wondering where this info about the name came from initially if it isn't true... It must have come from somewhere... Maybe someone knows what the original source was, so this is why I made this post...

Offline Denise

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Re: Rasputin's last name
« Reply #140 on: February 08, 2005, 11:18:22 AM »
In Radzinsky "Rasputin File" it talks on page 79 how Alexangra was upset at the shameful name the holy man bore, and had him renamed Rasputin-Novy.  "The tsar then gave the order to call me not by the name Rasputin, but Novy." (Iliodor recorded Rasputin's words on the name change.)

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Rasputin's last name
« Reply #141 on: February 08, 2005, 03:30:27 PM »
I have read this version too, but I more often heard that he started out with the name "Novikh", and that it was later changed to Rasputin because of his "ways". I also heard another version, that it was his father's name that was changed from "Novikh" to "Rasputin" . But according to Spiridovitch, as FA posted, this was not so, Rasputin was their original name....  Very confusing....

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Re: Rasputin's last name
« Reply #142 on: February 08, 2005, 03:47:15 PM »
Radzinsky does not cite Spiridovitch in his bibliography either.

Offline Denise

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Re: Rasputin's last name
« Reply #143 on: February 08, 2005, 04:55:38 PM »
I didn't think he did.. :)

This is a book that I have yet to finish due to my indescision about its historicity--is this book at all accurate?

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Rasputin's last name
« Reply #144 on: February 08, 2005, 04:58:52 PM »
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I didn't think he did.. :)

This is a book that I have yet to finish due to my indescision about its historicity--is this book at all accurate?


Lets put it this way, Radzinsky tends to get a little carried away with the drama and has been known to apply his "artistic license" a bit too often  ;)

Offline Denise

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Re: Rasputin's last name
« Reply #145 on: February 08, 2005, 05:14:30 PM »
I was afraid of that.  :(

It really is an entertaining read, though!!  I did pick up two other Rasputin Books on Amazon, one is by Moynahan ,and I don't remember the other.  They were both recommended on the forum though....Haven't had time to read them yet (what else is new?)

Offline brendan

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Re: Rasputin
« Reply #146 on: February 09, 2005, 06:46:39 PM »
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 Now, just because Steinberg said this doesn't automatically make it true of course, but my point is, even a serious historian accepted this as fact - enough to use in his lecture, so perhaps it is possible this was the case?


:)Dont forget that everyone of us doing research or just talking here, are every bit the historian this Steinburg guy is.   Ive learned just as much if not more from you and many other peoples posts on this site  then from guys like Steinberg, Radzinsky, and every other "serious historian". :)

Offline Johnny

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Re: Rasputin
« Reply #147 on: February 12, 2005, 12:19:27 PM »
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I am bringing this up again because of something I heard this morning. I was listening to a Russian history audio course, given by Dr Mark Steinberg, a Russian History Professor at the University of Illinois (he is also the author of THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS). When he was talking about Rasputin, he said exactly what I posted before, that "his real name was 'Novikh' and 'Rasputin' was a nickname given to him because it means 'debauched'". Now, just because Steinberg said this doesn't automatically make it true of course, but my point is, even a serious historian accepted this as fact - enough to use in his lecture, so perhaps it is possible this was the case? As I mentioned before, I came across this information in several different places, not just in Erickson's book....

And according to Radzinsky "A mere two months after their first meeting, the tsar was personally engaged in changing the unknown peasant's last name....Alix was upset about the unpleasant-sounding name, so inappropriate to the character of the holy man...Bendkendorf informed:'In conveying to me this written petition from Rasputin, His Majesty had deigned to express his special desire that the request be respected.' On 22 Dec. 1906, the petition was granted."
Also the story in which Iliodor quotes Rasputin saying that it was Alexei who upon seeing Rasputin apparently cried "Novy, novy, novy, (and not Novykh, that is the genitive case of Novy that appeared on letters and telegramms meaning from Novy) meaning the new one. This was also the official story, although perhaps not the truth. True or not true, they all point to the fact that Rasputin's real name was Rasputin and not Novy. Otherwise why would he have to go through a legal name change process in order to change his name. If Rasputin as they say was merely a nickname given to them by the other peasants, it wouldn't be necessary to have a legal petition to change it.
I don't know Steinberg, but I consider Radzinsky to be, if somewhat flamboyant, nevertheless a historian.
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Re: Rasputin
« Reply #148 on: February 12, 2005, 12:44:17 PM »
From Rasputine by Spiridovitch, pg. 73 (my translation):
"That year (1906) or the following year, Rasputin received the name "Novyk".  His daughter Matrona explained that it happened one day when the Tsarevich greeted Grigori with the words "Papa, Papa! here is the new one (Novy)!" This nickname pleased Their Majesties, and so they gave him this new name.  The enemies of the Staryets said that they had changed his name because Rasputin as a name came from "rasputsvo" or debauched, which served as proof to them that his family had long been famous for their vices.  However, as to the Rasputin family themselves, they explain that the name came from the word "rasputye" or the crossing of roads, and moreover this is the far more likely explanation.  In any event, changing Rasputin's name only served to give new ammunition to his enemies."

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Rasputin
« Reply #149 on: February 12, 2005, 12:55:56 PM »
Ok, so it seems that this is how this name confusion originated... Thanks.