Did Nicholas Have Autism or Any Kind of Social Disorder?

[belianis]

NII has often been called stupid, but I'm not quite sure about that. I have known ignorant and stupid people who nevertheless were able to learn a few things because of experience. That seems not to have been the case with Nicholas; all through his life, up to the time of his deposition, NII seemed to be oblivious to everything around him--exactly as if he were encased inside a cocoon.
Could it be possible that he suffered from some form of autism? Certainly I have been struck by the fact that people who met Nicholas consistently described him as polite, but aloof and even distant, as if his mind were always somewhere else.

[RomanovsFan4Ever]

What I can say for sure is that Nicholas II was NOT stupid, on the contrary, he was an intelligent person...we all know very well that he committed errors during his reign, but this doesn't mean that he was stupid.
Honestly I've never read about the possibility that he suffered from a form of autism...I don't think that he was autistic, the fact that he was often described as aloof and even distant it's just a "suggestion"...but however I think that I can't completely exclude this hypothesis...

[Alixz]

NII has often been called stupid, but I'm not quite sure about that. I have known ignorant and stupid people who nevertheless were able to learn a few things because of experience. That seems not to have been the case with Nicholas; all through his life, up to the time of his deposition, NII seemed to be oblivious to everything around him--exactly as if he were encased inside a cocoon.
Could it be possible that he suffered from some form of autism? Certainly I have been struck by the fact that people who met Nicholas consistently described him as polite, but aloof and even distant, as if his mind were always somewhere else.

belianis - welcome to the forum!  What would be your definition of ignorant and/or stupid?  I find that labeling a person in such a way is counter productive.

Nicholas was not a stupid man.  He was well educated even though he himself admitted that learning was boring and haven't we all said that at some time in our lives.  Teachers and tutors need to make education exciting and perhaps Nicholas's tutors just didn't do that for him, but he did learn and had a well rounded education when he " definitely and forever" finished his education in the classroom at age 21.

As for Autism.  I work with the autistic and there are so many levels to this condition that it is hard for doctors to determine exactly where an individual fits into the autism spectrum.

Nicholas was a shy man and an introvert.  He was a private person.  He was not bold or adventurous and certainly not a man to be put in the position of being an autocrat.

He was surrounded by family members who were much stronger in personality than he was and then he married a woman who was stronger in personality than any of the rest while she was also shy and an introvert.

Alexandra is what some of would call a "warrior mom".  I have been called that and other mothers that I know are also called that as we carry the burden of caring for and educating and protecting children with mental or physical deficiencies.

Amazingly, I have been told that very few marriages succeed when there is a child with a handicap and it is usually the father who breaks from the marriage leaving the mother to care for her child alone.

But back to Nicholas and your question.  Nicholas has been seen to have not been interested in what his ministers reported to him.  We have all read how he would treat a person with great kindness in a meeting and then send that same person a letter of dismissal the next day.

I think he was overwhelmed with the responsibility of being tsar.  He had too many people advising him behind the scenes.  And then he had Alexandra and their sick son Alexei to worry about.

Have you ever felt that you have to "get out" of situation because your head is spinning and you can't think clearly?  I know that I have.  But for Nicholas and Alexandra there was no where to go to get away from the turmoil.  And hardest of all, there was no cure for the biggest problem and no where to run from it.  Alexei was sick and all of the Romanov money and power could do nothing for him.

Perhaps Nicholas needed to be able to "compartmentalize" his problems, but that phrase didn't exist 100 years ago and no one would have been able to tell him to do that.

The man was drowning in trouble.  But Autistic?  Perhaps in the Asperger's sense, but I am not even sure about that.

[myhusbandswife]

That seems extraordinary to me that someone would think Nicholas autistic. But I try to live by the motto to each his own. I personally, especially after reading is diaries, don't see any signs of autism. But then again I didn't know him in person..unfortunately. I would have loved to meet or even see the Royal family!! Interesting question though. I am curious if anyone else thought that Nicholas may have had a form of autism...

[belianis]

NII has often been called stupid, but I'm not quite sure about that. I have known ignorant and stupid people who nevertheless were able to learn a few things because of experience. That seems not to have been the case with Nicholas; all through his life, up to the time of his deposition, NII seemed to be oblivious to everything around him--exactly as if he were encased inside a cocoon.
Could it be possible that he suffered from some form of autism? Certainly I have been struck by the fact that people who met Nicholas consistently described him as polite, but aloof and even distant, as if his mind were always somewhere else.

belianis - welcome to the forum!  What would be your definition of ignorant and/or stupid?  I find that labeling a person in such a way is counter productive.

Nicholas was not a stupid man.  He was well educated even though he himself admitted that learning was boring and haven't we all said that at some time in our lives.  Teachers and tutors need to make education exciting and perhaps Nicholas's tutors just didn't do that for him, but he did learn and had a well rounded education when he " definitely and forever" finished his education in the classroom at age 21.

As for Autism.  I work with the autistic and there are so many levels to this condition that it is hard for doctors to determine exactly where an individual fits into the autism spectrum.

Nicholas was a shy man and an introvert.  He was a private person.  He was not bold or adventurous and certainly not a man to be put in the position of being an autocrat.

He was surrounded by family members who were much stronger in personality than he was and then he married a woman who was stronger in personality than any of the rest while she was also shy and an introvert.

Alexandra is what some of would call a "warrior mom".  I have been called that and other mothers that I know are also called that as we carry the burden of caring for and educating and protecting children with mental or physical deficiencies.

Amazingly, I have been told that very few marriages succeed when there is a child with a handicap and it is usually the father who breaks from the marriage leaving the mother to care for her child alone.

But back to Nicholas and your question.  Nicholas has been seen to have not been interested in what his ministers reported to him.  We have all read how he would treat a person with great kindness in a meeting and then send that same person a letter of dismissal the next day.

I think he was overwhelmed with the responsibility of being tsar.  He had too many people advising him behind the scenes.  And then he had Alexandra and their sick son Alexei to worry about.

Have you ever felt that you have to "get out" of situation because your head is spinning and you can't think clearly?  I know that I have.  But for Nicholas and Alexandra there was no where to go to get away from the turmoil.  And hardest of all, there was no cure for the biggest problem and no where to run from it.  Alexei was sick and all of the Romanov money and power could do nothing for him.

Perhaps Nicholas needed to be able to "compartmentalize" his problems, but that phrase didn't exist 100 years ago and no one would have been able to tell him to do that.

The man was drowning in trouble.  But Autistic?  Perhaps in the Asperger's sense, but I am not even sure about that.

Funny you should mention AS, because I was born with that condition, and it was not properly recognised until it had ruined almost all of my life. Naturally I'm curious about which other people might have suffered from it, and NII certainly seems to have suffered several psychological handicaps.

[LisaDavidson]

Nicholas was shy, reserved, and more comfortable with people he knew well. There are many people like this, and they are not psychologically impaired. Nicholas had no opportunity to select a career that was well suited to his skills and preferences. Like many in this world even today, he was thrust into many situations that were not of his making. I'm sure he did his best, and he was a very dutiful person, and very conscientious about his responsibilities.

Had he been a staff officer as were many of his ancestors on his mother's side, he would likely have lived a long and happy life and been well loved and well regarded by all. But, this was not to be.

[Alixz]

To Rosieposie:  I am sorry that your post was deleted.  I have put it back as best I can.

Alixz

The person who asked about Autism wrote the same question on the Internet Movie Data Base.com
In the forum of "Nicholas & Alexandra" movie.

Rosieposie

[Alixz]

I just finished  Rasputin - The Saint Who Sinned  by Brian Moynahan.

No matter how many books I read about the final days of the Romanovs while still on the throne, I can help but see Nicholas as having had a mental or nervous breakdown as well as a possible minor heart attack while at Stavka.

I also can't help but see Alexandra as a harpy.  She "beat " Nicholas with her daily letters and then covered the abuse with a syrupy guilt trip and an over abundance of what a modern person would call, "I did it because I love you".

I know that she was a "warrior mom".  She was a tigress protecting her cub.  But she was totally out of control after Nicholas left for Stavka and between Alexandra and Rasputin the country went to "hell in a hand basket".

Moynahan makes the point that Nicholas was not so much going to command the army as he was going to escape his problems at home and in St. Petersburg.

I don't doubt that Nicholas loved Alexandra and Russia and his family.  I don't doubt that he was the wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time.

However unsuited he was for his position in life, it was his position.  When he gave the reigns to Alexandra and through her to Rasputin it was Nicholas who made the decision that would finally lead to his abdication.

Was Nicholas mentally challenged as we would recognize it today?  No historian has yet posited that he might have been.

[Naslednik]

Belianis, I'm really surprised that anyone would think of him as autistic.  It is very hard to get a clear picture of him through the web of court gossip, Bolshevik lies and his own reticence to go public with his emotions.  But even though he was shy, check out the descriptions of him, both from his intimates and people meeting him only once.  The same words show up time and again: charming, easy to talk to, not intimidating, deeply expressive eyes, able to shift between languages.  These sound like pretty well-developed social skills to me.  I remember a wonderful description of his unexpected arrival at some soldiers' lunch at the Winter Palace.  The soldier describing the scene said that all his peers were surprised by his arrival, a bit nervous, but N sat down at each table to eat a bit with each group of men.  They were amazed by his unaffected amiability.  At the end he asked them to take the fruit and sweets home to their wives and girlfriends.  I couldn't handle a crowd that neatly, so if that's autistic, then you'd better diagnose me quick! 

[Alixz]

I think that we see Nicholas changing as he grew into his role of Tsar and as his marriage to Alexandra aged.

Nicholas was a warm, charming, well educated albeit a shy and reserved young man.  Even before their wedding, Alexandra began leaving "little notes" in his diary that were a form of criticism covered in love.

The notes that she left at the time of Alexander IIIs death were not so much different that those she sent him at Stavka 22 years later.  She always saw herself as the "strong one" and Nicholas as the one needing to be propped up.

After so many years of that kind of treatment, even the strongest of us might begin to think that we were truly weak and in need of someone to tell us what to think and do.  Nicholas was not strong.  I don't see him as weak, just unprepared, but Alexandra and the uncles and Empress Marie never gave him the chance to be what he could be without interference.

I believe that in his love for Alexandra, he became afraid of getting another one of the critical yet loving notes.  Alexandra's love was a form of metal abuse that we still see today.  One partner is so strong and so opinionated that the other partner becomes unable to function without approval from the strong one.

The only form of control that was left to Nicholas was in his role of arbitrator of who was the proper minister and who was not.  Even then, Alexandra got into that part of his life as well.  But Nicholas could and did refuse to listen to those whom he had some control over and he hired and fired those who would not be able to come back, as Alexandra could, and harass him about his decisions.

His way of governing was not productive and he made many enemies among those he praised and then let go.  However, that does not make him Autistic or in any other way mentally challenged.

[Naslednik]

And Autism is so often not an intellectual problem as a social one.  Doesn't sound like Nicholas to me.

[myhusbandswife]

No matter how many books I read about the final days of the Romanovs while still on the throne, I can help but see Nicholas as having had a mental or nervous breakdown as well as a possible minor heart attack while at Stavka.

I was just re-reading "A lifelong Passion" last night and in 1917..forgive me as I do not have the book in front of me, so I don't remember what date exactly or his exact words, but in a letter to Alix he stated that in the morning he had had an excruciating pain in the middle of his chest that last a quarter of an hour. He couldn't stand and his forehead was beaded with sweat. He said he couldn't figure out what it could have been because he had no heart beating.
Not sure what he means by no heart beating...Anyways, Alixz, was this what made you think he had a minor heart attack? I also believe he did. I believe this poor man was smothered in stress and had no way out. I feel like the world lifted from his shoulders when he abdicated. But I also feel like he was a man that loved his wife more than anything and just wanted to make her happy. I think he did the things she asked or said to make her happy, not because she harped on him all the time about it. To me he just seemed to be hopelessly in love....love is blind...to everything around it. Just my little old opinion!

[Alixz]

MHW - yes I do think that he had a 'minor" heat attack.  In that part of the century, I doubt that he would have recognized it for what it was.

I also believed that he loved his wife and family more than anything else in life, but I still believe that she "guilt tripped him" under the guise of love.  She loved him, but found him wanting in his way of dealing with life.  No doubt she thought that she was doing the right thing by sending him those little messages and then later larger letters, but there is always that undertone of nagging.

Always that way of saying - you are not doing things they I would like, but forgive me lovey.  I don't know, but I would hate to get love letters like that from my husband.  Her's was not a 'constructive criticism" but an almost mental abuse.

But Nicholas must have had the "patience of Job" as he always bemoaned that he was born on "Job's Day", to have suffered her criticism and loved her the way he did.

[historyfan]

I was just re-reading "A lifelong Passion" last night and in 1917..forgive me as I do not have the book in front of me, so I don't remember what date exactly or his exact words, but in a letter to Alix he stated that in the morning he had had an excruciating pain in the middle of his chest that last a quarter of an hour. He couldn't stand and his forehead was beaded with sweat. He said he couldn't figure out what it could have been because he had no heart beating.
Not sure what he means by no heart beating...Anyways, Alixz, was this what made you think he had a minor heart attack? I also believe he did. I believe this poor man was smothered in stress and had no way out. I feel like the world lifted from his shoulders when he abdicated. But I also feel like he was a man that loved his wife more than anything and just wanted to make her happy. I think he did the things she asked or said to make her happy, not because she harped on him all the time about it. To me he just seemed to be hopelessly in love....love is blind...to everything around it. Just my little old opinion!

I believe it was early Feb, or possibly late Jan - I still have a hard time keeping the dates straight.

He was trying to make everyone happy.  We all know that is impossible.  Even when we only have a family of five, not an empire of a hundred million.

I don't see him as mentally challenged at all, but *situationally* challenged.  Boy, was he challenged, every day of his life!

[Naslednik]

I don't see him as mentally challenged at all, but *situationally* challenged.  Boy, was he challenged, every day of his life!

   
I couldn't agree more.  In fact, I think that very few books have been written that really explain the enormity of his challenges.  People often judge him from the perspective of their own (relatively simple) lives without really feeling how difficult his decision-making was, or how painful his son's disease was, or how scary and disheartening it would be to face assassination from a young age.

Wasn't the heart attack in 1916, while he was at church at Stavka?  I wonder if he continued to have mild symptoms for the rest of 1916 and if that contributed to his mental breakdown, or whatever Paleologue describes, in Jan 1917?  It certainly could explain the fatigue he complained about at times, and his interest in medications to alleviate fatigue.  But then depression can cause exhaustion, too.