Author Topic: Rasputin's Murder  (Read 216472 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #240 on: January 12, 2006, 08:10:30 AM »
Felix's description of Rasputin's clothes is almost identical to Maria's, meaning either they both remembered exactly the same, or perhaps Maria copied it from Lost Splendour:

From Lost Splendour, chapter 23:

Rasputin wore a silk blouse embroidered with cornflowers, with a thick raspberry colored cord belt. His velvet breeches and highly polished boots seemed brand new. He had brushed his hair and carefully combed his beard. As he came close to me, I smelled a strong odor of cheap soap which indicated that he had taken pains with his appearance. I had never seen him look so clean and tidy.

However, Felix and Maria differ on Felix's clothes that night. Felix stated he was in his Corps De Pages uniform, Maria described him as being in elegant evening clothes with a long overcoat.

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #241 on: January 12, 2006, 09:39:57 AM »
Hi,
Lets all use Vlasuk as the spelling (its easier I think).

I think all the accounts concur that R was wearing knee high polished leather boots. They would easily fit into galoshes or "snow shoes" (which is an untranslated quote from Spiridovitch) I remember needing such foot apparel when I went to Russia in the 1970s, and while I had an expensive pair of american "apres ski" shoes, I found an inexpensive pair of russian boots designed to easily fit over your "indoor" footwear, making it easier to go in and out.  There is no doubt in my mind that R. had on his best pair of boots to go meet Irina, and put on "snow shoes" or a sort of galoshes OVER them to keep them clean.

Lets not forget that R. believed he was going to meet Priness Irina in her own home, and even R. would have dressed very well for such an occassion out of respect for her.

Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #242 on: January 12, 2006, 01:37:45 PM »
Tsaria

You are quite correct the shoes were boots.  however i disagree with the fact that Yusupov only admitted guilt when he was in the Crimea - he by his own admission had told individuals about what had happened almost straight after the murder.  Felix was a strange man, in many ways, but let us face it without Rasputin he would have been a bit of a rather uninspiring, unspectacular, rich boy.

I will post the detail of Vlasuk shortly.  It is Efimov the constable on duty in Morskaya Street who reports 'a low scream, as if it was a woman's'  But he doesn't say it WAS a woman's scream.

FA (Rob) Of course the problem is we believe the story that R was only going to the Y Palace because Irina was going to be there.  We have no independent evidence of this, the letters between Felix and Irina hint at somehting but there is nothing saying 'I want you here beacuse you are the lure for Rasputin'  I think this is the problem we all have, is anything, other than that which we have evidence to support, the truth or is it part of the conspiratoral story created by Y and P?  I don't know the answer.

Richard

I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #243 on: January 12, 2006, 01:44:48 PM »
Richard - Sorry, I got the names of the two policeman mixed up (hence the value of deciding on spelling).

Indeed, he describe it as sounding like a woman's scream.   He did not definitively state it was female.   I have seen other references to women being present at the Yusupov Palace.  I will try to establish where.

Additionally, what about the sons of 'Sandro' - Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich?   Is there evidence their support their presence?

tsaria

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #244 on: January 12, 2006, 01:49:36 PM »
Felix's palace certainly had female servants. So perhaps the female  voices were from staff and not "guests" ?
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #245 on: January 12, 2006, 01:50:14 PM »
THE TRUE AND AUTHENTIC STORY OF THE MURDER AS RELATED TO STOPFORD 6 JUNE 1917, AT YALTA BY FELIX.

1. He says that there was no supper party - well that coincides with Y and P, just the pretence of one.

2. Y went to fetch R personally - R had never set foot in the Palace (this is strangley at odds with the privately circulated memorandum he produces at Appendix II where he suggests R was a regular visitor to the Y Palace where his hosts, a consortia of Princes got him drunk in order to interrogate him).

3. He says the police report leave sno doubt that two women were with them but that Dimitri and Y had always denied this.  Not correct Y had told Popov and written to the Tsarita that there were two women at the Palace.  Something which he, P and lazovery subsequently say is not the case and of which there is not one bit of real evidence to support.

4. Y did not drink he is an abstainer - rubbish he says he drank wine that night and he tells of being drunk on Champagne elsewhere in his memoirs.

5. Crumbs Y borrows P's revolver, Y says he borrowed Dimitri's. P says he took his own baby browning from a drawer in his study desk.

6. Shot him and left him lying on the bearskin - Y and P both insist that Dimitri and P moved the body to save it staining the rug.  P says that it was only 'flattened'.

7. R escapes, P goes in pursuit, but allegedly R has collapsed in the snow.  P fires 4 shots, two miss, difficult if he is lying in the snow, the last two hit the back of the head, he must then have rolled over so P could fire the fatal shot to the forehead.

8. Body taken back in to await the return of the car?  Stopford is mixing the police report and Y's tale here.

9.  he is correct in saying poilce have no right to enter the Palace as Irina lives there (Greg King is very strong on this)

Richard
I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815

Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #246 on: January 12, 2006, 02:01:28 PM »
Appendix III

Tsaria here come some of the suggestions:

1. Rasputin shot at 7.00am (no evidence at all to support this)

2. Dimitri, Princes Feodor and Nikita Alexandrovich were at the Palace and privvy to the shooting (no evidence to support this contention although Feodor and Nikita undoubtedly knew of the plot as did an awful lot of peopel - Stopford suggest he was told by Dimitri, 12 days before the event)

3. reported that one of teh sons of Grand Duke Constantine involved - no eveidence at all

4. Y and young Pronces, his brothers-in-law together with othe rimperial pronces used to assemble at night with rasputin and get him drunk - not one shred of evidence.

5. Some of Rasputin's ladies were invited by invitation - not one shred of evidence.

6. from the reports of the police investigation (he refers to Appendix III) it would apepar that at about 2.30 R was told he would die and was givemn the option of committing suicide and given a gun - really this is a fantasy world.

7.  he is alleged to have fired the gun in the direction of Dimitri - that is why you wouldn't give a trapped man a gun.

Richard

I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815

Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #247 on: January 12, 2006, 02:02:00 PM »
Appendix III

Tsaria here come some of the suggestions:

1. Rasputin shot at 7.00am (no evidence at all to support this)

2. Dimitri, Princes Feodor and Nikita Alexandrovich were at the Palace and privvy to the shooting (no evidence to support this contention although Feodor and Nikita undoubtedly knew of the plot as did an awful lot of peopel - Stopford suggest he was told by Dimitri, 12 days before the event)

3. reported that one of teh sons of Grand Duke Constantine involved - no eveidence at all

4. Y and young Pronces, his brothers-in-law together with othe rimperial pronces used to assemble at night with rasputin and get him drunk - not one shred of evidence.

5. Some of Rasputin's ladies were invited by invitation - not one shred of evidence.

6. from the reports of the police investigation (he refers to Appendix III) it would apepar that at about 2.30 R was told he would die and was givemn the option of committing suicide and given a gun - really this is a fantasy world.

7.  he is alleged to have fired the gun in the direction of Dimitri - that is why you wouldn't give a trapped man a gun.

Richard

I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #248 on: January 12, 2006, 02:40:40 PM »
Quote
FA (Rob) Of course the problem is we believe the story that R was only going to the Y Palace because Irina was going to be there.  We have no independent evidence of this, the letters between Felix and Irina hint at somehting but there is nothing saying 'I want you here beacuse you are the lure for Rasputin'  I think this is the problem we all have, is anything, other than that which we have evidence to support, the truth or is it part of the conspiratoral story created by Y and P?  I don't know the answer.

Richard



Richard, you missed this above: (A...is Anna Vyrubova, who told Alexandra and others  that Rasputin specifically told HER this)

Alexandra's letter (in part) to Nicholas  dated 17 Dec. 1916:
"You can not imagine our feelings, our thoughts: our Friend disappeared. Yesterday A...saw him; he told her that Felix invited Him to come to his house that night, and that an automobile would come to take Him to go see Irina.

Spirid.: pg 375. Dec. 16
"In the afternoon Grigori took a nap to disspiate some of the wine he had been drinking.  Afterwards he took a long shower.  When he felt better, it was announced to him that A.A. Vyroubova would come at 8pm to see him.  At that time no one else was in his house except Maria Golovina.  The staryets told her that he was going that evening to Felix's house, and she was very happy to hear it.
"Annoutchka appeared at 8pm, and she brought him a small wooden icon which the Empress had brought from Novgorod to present to him.  On the back of the icon were the signatures of the Empress and all her children.  Rasputin also then told A.A. Vyrubova that he was going to Felix's house at 1am.  As Anoutchka was astonished at the lateness of such an hour, the staryets explained that he was going to take care of Felix's wife who had been ill, but because the rest of the family hated him, the prince asked him to come very late so that no one would see him in the palace.  Vyubova advised him that he should not go as she felt something suspicious about the invitation.  Moreover, since Felix and his wife would be publicly disgraced should they openly receive R, there would be no harm in refusing to go. Annoutchka and Mounia Golovina left around 9pm.  As soon as she returned to Tsarskoe Selo, AA Vyrubova told the Empress about the staryets' intentions to go.  Alexandra Feodorovna knew full well that Princess Irina Alexandrovna was still in the Crimea, and so was very much surprised, so that she thought that Vyrubova must have misunderstood him.  At 10 pm, once his girls were asleep as usual, R. went into their room.  He told them that Y. was coming to get him later that night, so that if anyone telephoned, they must respond that he was not home, but they should not tell anyone that he was at the Yussupov house.  
"About this time, the Ohkrana agents retired...."

I for one am wholly convinced of the truth of the "cover story" that R was expecting to see Irina at F's invitation. Pehaps if only Vyrubova had told it there may be doubt, however Alexandra's telling it to N. gives it extrinsic credibility. It actually makes sense now that perhaps women WERE there, so the R might hear a female voice and assume it was Irina.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

Offline Annie

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #249 on: January 12, 2006, 03:16:15 PM »
I know Radzinksky is not popular here, but according to "The Rasputin File", there were 2 women present and he named them by name. One was a ballerina, one was Dmitri's stepsister, his stepmother's child by her first husband. Anna V. was apparently friends with the  latter, and got the report from her. This is  mentioned in her book, and seems to have been backed up by police reports released after the Soviet regime fell, which stated 2 women were seen by police being shoved out a door around dawn, this is mentioned in "The Rasputin File."  I will consult the books and come back later with direct quotes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #250 on: January 12, 2006, 04:02:59 PM »
Here is an excerpt from Vyroubova's "Memories of the Russian Court" Ch. 13, from the main AP website:

"On the afternoon of December 16 (December 30) I was sent by the Empress on an errand, entirely non-political, to Rasputin's lodgings. I went, as always, reluctantly, because I knew the evil construction which would be placed on my errand by any of the conspirators who happened to see me. Yet, as in duty bound, I went. I stayed the shortest possible time, but in that brief interval I heard Rasputin say that he expected to pay a late evening visit to the Yussupov Palace to meet Grand Duchess Irene, wife of Prince Felix Yussupov. Although I knew that Felix had often visited Rasputin it struck me as odd that he should go to their house for the first time at such an unseemly hour. But to my question Rasputin replied that Felix did not wish his parents to know of his visit. As I was leaving the place Rasputin said a strange thing to me. "What more do you want?" he asked in a low voice. "Already you have received all." All that his prayers could give me? Did he mean that?

That evening in the Empress's boudoir I mentioned this proposed midnight visit, and the Empress said in some surprise: "But there must be some mistake. Irene is in the Crimea, and neither of the older Yussupovs are in town." Once again she repeated thoughtfully: "There is surely a mistake," and then we began to talk of other things. The next morning soon after breakfast I was called on the telephone by one of the daughters of Rasputin, both of whom were being educated in St. Petersburg. In some anxiety the young girl told me that her father had gone out the night before in the Yussupov motor car and had not returned. I was startled, of course, and even a little frightened, but I did not then guess the real significance of her news. When I reached the palace I gave the message to the Empress, who listened with a grave face but with little comment."

Offline Annie

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #251 on: January 12, 2006, 04:11:40 PM »
While you are reading her memories, can you find the part where she talks of the females at Yussoupov's that night?

I found something on it in Radzinsky's book, I will post it in my next post.

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #252 on: January 12, 2006, 04:29:40 PM »
Vyrubova says nothing about any women being present.

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #253 on: January 12, 2006, 04:37:50 PM »
Another female name, said to have been present that night, is Vera Corelli.   She was an opera singer, I think.   She was also Felix's cousin.

tsaria

Offline Annie

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #254 on: January 12, 2006, 04:54:50 PM »
"The Rasputin File"
from page 467

The murderers could not, of course, have failed to arrange for the participation of women. It was not for nothing that when the preparations for the murder were being made, Felix had written to Irina "Malanya's also taking part." It was not for nothing, either, that the police had information about the presence of women that night, and that Tsarskoe Selo had the information, too...

I easily found the ballerina's name in the Department of Police case file. There were several whole reports about Vera Karalli, whom police suspected of taking place in the  murder night. "Vera Karalli, a performer with the  Ballet company of the Imperial theatres, 27 years old. During her stays in the capital, she was visited by Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich" an agent reported. Her presence at the Yussoupov palace that night was also claimed by Simonovich, who went to the police station on the Moika Canal on Dec. 17 with Bishop Isador....

But Karalli was also not the only woman at the Yussoupov palace that night. They knew in Tsarskoe Selo of the participation of another lady, a much more important one. Vyrobova names her straight out: Marianna Derfelden, daughter of Grand Duke Paul's wife Olga by her first marriage to Alexander Pistolkors...

the police evidence against Marianna was so serious, that she, the stepdaughter of a grand duke, was arrested!...

She was called Marianna, but her sarcastic friends mockingly twisted her French name into the peasant name, "Malanya."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »