Author Topic: Rasputin's Murder  (Read 216468 times)

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Offline ChristineM

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #345 on: January 18, 2006, 03:39:07 PM »
Sometimes when you are looking for something you find it right under your nose, as I did on Page 1 of this thread where 'Todd' posted a partial account of Professor Dmitry Korosotov's post mortem findings -

'There were a number of injuries, many of them caused post mortem.'

'''The right side of the head was shattered and flattened as a result of contusion to the body during its fall from the bridge.   Death followed resulting from abundant loss of blood from a wound to the stomach.   The shooting took place, as I concluded, from almost point blank range from the left to the right side through the stomach and liver shattering the right half of the liver.   There was a huge loss of blood.   A gunshot was also found in the back, in the area of the spinal column, which shattered the right kidney and another wound at point blank range in the forehead (as he lay dying or was already dead).....

'''.....In my opinion Grigory Rasputin was killed by gunshot wounds from a revolver.   One bullet was extracted, the other shots were made at close range and passed on through the body, so it was impossible to conclude how many people shot him.....

'''.....The smell of cognac exuded from his body.   His brain was normal in size and showed no signs whatsoever of any pathelogical aberrations.....'''

Kosorotov noted that Rasputin was fifty years old when he was murdered and he recalled that, during a break in the post mortem, they were having a cup of tea and, when discussing Rasputin, they all agreed he could have lived for another fifty years.

What happened to the bullet fired at point blank range into Rasputin's head.   Even I know, without reference to forensic experts, that an unjacketed bullet would have blasted off the back of Rasputin's skull and, along with it, most of his brain.   How, therefore, was Kosorotov able to report that Rasputin's brain was of normal size and showed no signs whatsoever of any pathelogical aberrations?

Korosotov recorded that, in his opinion, the serious damage inflicted to the right side of Rasputin's head was as a result of it coming into violent contact with the bridge post mortem.

'I have often had to conduct various and difficult and unpleasant autopsies.   I am a man of strong nerves who has seen just about everything there is to see.   But seldom have I experienced such unpleasant moments as happened during that terrible night.   The corpse made an unpleasant impression on me.   The reedy expression on his face and the huge wound on the head were difficult to look at even for experienced eyes.'

Kosorotov's conclusion is not at all surprising, that is if the wound had been at the back of the head and not on the right side as he records.

When Spiridovitch wrote that Rasputin was killed by the head bullet, he had no way of knowing.   Even the pathologist who carried out the post mortem could not confirm whether or not Rasput was alive or dead when that bullet was fired into his head.

On the 16th October 2005, Richard wrote - 'However, it seems the bullet did not pass through the head.'   Where, then, did the bullet go?

What conclusions do Professors Zhorov and Pounder draw from this aspect of Professor Kosorotov's report?

tsaria

Offline Arleen

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #346 on: January 18, 2006, 04:03:00 PM »
Yes, I too would like to know.

Arleen

Offline rudy3

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #347 on: January 18, 2006, 04:46:15 PM »
Oleg Shishkin published two books about Rasputin. In 2000: “To kill Rasputin” (Doesn’t the title sound familiar?), but the Cook-connection is worked out in his second: “Rasputin. The history of a crime” 2004. However, a principle role is reserved for Samuel Hoare. But the books follow more or less the lines of our discussion on this forum: the impossibility of the stories of the murder by Purishkevich and Yusupov, and possible British participation.
“To kill Rasputin”: This documental detective by O. Shishkin, based on new materials, tells about the unknown sides of Rasputin’s international activity, about his contacts with representatives of secret German societies, about the participation of the “holy starets” in a court-revolution, planned for end 1916, and discloses the mechanism of the attack on the favorite and the name of one of the murderers. In this book also the notes of the former chief of the Police Department S. P. Beletsky, a contemporary of Rasputin, as well as sensational archive documents”
“Rasputin. The history of a crime”: There is not one person in Russia, who has not heard something about the murder of Rasputin. Many books are dedicated to this theme, but do we know all about the circumstances of this crime? The motives are more or less clear, but what is known about the criminals? Who were they? Is their list complete? New details about the identification of the murderers of Rasputin you will find in this book by O. Shishkin “Rasputin. The history of a crime”

Offline rudy3

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #348 on: January 18, 2006, 05:18:59 PM »
About the circumstances under which the autopsy by prof Kosorotov was performed, let me quote Shishkin, who quotes Samuel Hoare:
Oleg Shishkin: “To kill Rasputin” pp. 149-150
“All the actions by pathologist Kosorotov and special prosecutor Sereda, who was present at the autopsy, were followed by agents of Samuel Hoare. The British resident describes extensively the autopsy and all the difficulties involved in his coded report of February 5th: “Although the premises did have electricity, not one lamp was burning, and it was not possible to switch them on. The three policeman present said, that there was no light, because “the dead did not need light”. The prosecutor and chirurg explained, that they needed light. In the end they got two small lamps, that could be hung on the walls, and one policeman kept holding a lantern. After some time the pliceman told, that he felt unwell and was not able to hold the lantern any longer. So, Sereda and Kosorotov were left alone in a badly illuminated room. They noted, that, although Rasputin was 46 years old, he looked like being 36.”
This Shishkin quoted from S. Hoare: Das vierte Siegel. Das Ende eines russischen Kapitels. Meine Mission in Russland 1916/17. Berlin – Leipzig 1936  

Offline Richard_Cullen

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TsariaRe: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #349 on: January 19, 2006, 03:10:50 AM »
tsaria

I think Todd's posting is a very over egged version of what Kossorotov said, I will try and post the paper on the original PM later today - but I am afraid it is no where near as graphic or descriptive as the Todd posting and I use the version that Zharov has also used.

the problem is we have to yet again deconstruct the fiction of the autopsy, the various versions that have appeared and establish the facts.

We know the first bullet passed through the body, we are told the second (kidney shot) did not.  We can surmise that in the normal and expected event that the bullet to teh forehead would have passed through the brain.

I think there is a misread of what Kossorotov said, he says that individually the shots to the side and back would have been fatal, but someone might have been capable of movement after the shot until they bleed to death.  He says that the last shot would have been fatal and there could be no more activity.

he deos not assert that theinjuries to the face were all caused by hitting the bridge support and it is Zharov more than Kossorotov that explores this point.  Kossorotov states and zharov agrees that R was subject to an assault by a weapon ankin to a cosh.

'I, professor Kossorotov, declare that I have been to Fexamen and to the autopsy of Rasputin’s dead body, on 20th December 1916 at 10 o’clock in the evening, in the mortuary room of the Tchesma Hospice.  The body was recognised by his two daughters, his niece, his secretary and various witnesses.

The body is that of a man of about 50 years old, of medium size, dressed in blue embroidered hospital robe, which covers a white shirt.  His legs, in tall animal skin boots, are tied with a rope, and the same rope ties his wrists.  His dishevelled hair is light brown, as are his long moustache and beard, and it’s soaked with blood.  His mouth is half-open, his teeth clenched.  His face below his forehead is covered in blood.  His shirt too is also marked with blood.

There are three bullet wounds.

1)      the first has penetrated the left side of the chest and has gone through the stomach and the liver

2)      the second has entered into the right side of the back and gone through the kidney


3)      the third has hit the victim on the forehead and penetrated into his brain

Bullet analysis

The first two bullets hit the victim standing
The third bullet hit the victim while he was lying on the ground
The bullets came from different calibre revolvers

Examination of the Head

The cerebral matter gave off a strong smell of alcohol

Examination of the stomach

The stomach contains about twenty soup spoons of liquid smelling of alcohol.  The examination reveals no trace of poison

Wounds

His left side has a weeping wound, due to some sort of slicing object or a sword.
His right eye has come out of its cavity and falls down onto his face.  At the corner of the right eye the membrane is torn.
His right ear in hanging down and torn
His neck has a wound from some sort of rope tie
The victim’s face and body carry traces of blows given by a supple but hard object
His genitals have been crushed by the action of a similar object

Causes of death
•      Haemorrhage caused by a wound to the liver and the wound to the right kidney must have started the rapid decline of his strength.
•       In this case, he would have died in ten or twenty minutes.  
•      At the moment of death the deceased was in a state of drunkenness.  The first bullet passed through the stomach and the liver.  This mortal blow had been shot from a distance of 20 centimetres.  
•      The wound on the right side, made at nearly exactly the same time as the first, was also mortal; it passed through the right kidney.  
•      The victim, at the time of the murder, was standing.  When he was shot in the forehead, his body was already on the ground.

I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815

Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #350 on: January 19, 2006, 03:13:51 AM »
MY COMMENTARY

There are no pictures of the rear of Rasputin’s head, probably because of the massive injuries that were likely to have been caused.  I do believe that photograph 22 shows considerable matting and blood soaked hair.  I have usefully used descriptions from the assassins of the Romanov Royal Family in the basement of the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg on 17 July 1918 from King’s and Wilson’s book:

‘When Yurovsky entered the room, he saw Botkin, covered in blood, held his Mauser close to Botkin’s head, and pulled the trigger.  The bullet ripped through the doctor’s head, exiting out the lower right side of his skull, its force slamming his body against the floor in a shower of gore.’

‘Yurovsky, standing behind Tatiana, aimed his Colt and fired.  The bullet tore into the rear of her head; it ripped through her skull instantly, blowing out the right front of her face in “a shower of blood and brains”.

Yurovsky’s Mauser was a .32 calibre (7.63mm) larger than the calibre of Mauser or Browning that Zharov and colleagues say caused the left side body wound to Rasputin.  His Colt was .45 calibre (11.43mm).


Zharov

Conclusion

1.      It is possible that the lethal dose of potassium cyanide didn’t cause Rasputin’s death. The poisoning did not occur, either as a result of cyanide changing its chemical status... (ineligible)  The nature of Rasputin’s complaints about feeling unwell after he took the poisoned cakes and wine, are characteristic of light poisoning.

2.      The autopsy of Rasputin showed three gunshot wounds where the bullets went in the body and one wound where the bullet came out; one cut and many bruises on the head caused by a heavy, blunt object. It is impossible to determine the type or the calibre of the gun from which he was shot (pistol or revolver), but we can assume that it was a 6.35 mm weapon.  

3.      It is also impossible to conclude the sequence, and the distance, from which the shots were fired. We can only suppose that out of three gunshots, the one into the head was the last. This shot shows all the signs of being fired at close range. The shot into the chest and back were probably fired from quite a close distance as well.

4.      The mechanical injuries (the ones not caused by gunshots) in the region of the head were caused by a succession of blows inflicted by heavy, blunt objects. These injuries could not have been caused by the body hitting the pylon of the bridge from which it was thrown off.

5.      The cut on the back was caused by a sharp object, possibly a knife or a razor blade. It is not possible to say whether this injury happened before or after death.

6.      After Rasputin was wounded in his stomach and liver, it is possible that he could walk, run; put up resistance during the next 5-15 minutes.

7.      After he was wounded in the head, it is dubious that he was able of to act with purpose and co-ordination.

8.      The injury most likely to have caused the death is the shot in the head, which caused the damage if the brain matter.

9.      There was no evidence of drowning in the studied materials

Expert of forensic medicine of the highest qualification
PhD in Medicine
Senior Lecturer
                                                       V.V.Zharov


Expert of forensic medicine of the highest qualification
PhD in Medicine
Lecturer
                                                        I.Y.Panov

Expert of forensic medicine of the highest qualification

                                                       V.K.Vasilevskiy


The Zharov Interview

As part of the Time Watch production I had the opportunity to interview Professor Zharov about his findings.  A short piece of the interview is included in the transmitted programme.

Three of the questions I asked Professor Zharov and the answers he gave are I believe of particular importance.


Question:

“I wonder if you could give me your opinion about Professor Kossorotov’s evidence that the three bullet wounds were caused by different calibre weapons.”

Answer:

“Yes I think that is the case, if we accept the wound to the left side was caused by a Browning, the one to the back by a Sauvage, and then the one to the forehead was caused by a larger calibre weapon than both of the other guns.”

Question:

“In your view does the contact wound to the forehead discredit Purishkevich’s evidence?”

Answer:

“Of course it does, Purishkevich said he fired at Rasputin from behind at a distance of twenty paces and hit Rasputin in the back of the head.  The picture of Rasputin’s forehead shows an entry wound, the Standsmark around it means it was fired at close range.”

Question:

“In your view, as the forensic evidence tells us that three weapons of different calibre were used does this mean that there was a third person involved in the shooting?”

Answer:

“As a scientist I cannot say that a third person was involved in Rasputin’s murder.  What I can say is that as an individual I am certain someone else was involved, because neither Purishkevich nor Yusupov mention the close quarter shot to the forehead – if they didn’t do it, who did?”

My Commentary on the Kossorotov Post Mortem and the Zharov, Panov and Vasilevskiy Report

There is no forensic evidence that Rasputin was poisoned by the use of cyanide.

At the time of his demise Rasputin was in a state of drunkenness

Rasputin did not die of drowning

There is evidence that Rasputin was shot three times

All three weapons were fired from a range of no more than 20 centimetres

All three bullets were from different calibre weapons

It is impossible to know the sequence of the shots but the shot to the forehead would have been immediately disabling and was therefore in all likelihood the last.

Both the shot to his left side (stomach/liver) and right side of back (kidney) would individually have been fatal in 10 to 20 minutes.

The head and body had been beaten with a hard but supple weapon consistent with the cosh Yusupov refers to.

The gentiles were crushed with the same weapon.  This is indicative of a sexual/revenge attack.

The face was considerably disfigured

It is impossible to identify whether certain injuries were caused ante or post mortem – for instance hitting the bridge supports.

Richard




I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815

Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #351 on: January 19, 2006, 03:15:43 AM »
My Commentary on the Kossorotov Post Mortem and the Zharov, Panov and Vasilevskiy Report

There is no forensic evidence that Rasputin was poisoned by the use of cyanide.

At the time of his demise Rasputin was in a state of drunkenness

Rasputin did not die of drowning

There is evidence that Rasputin was shot three times

All three weapons were fired from a range of no more than 20 centimetres

All three bullets were from different calibre weapons

It is impossible to know the sequence of the shots but the shot to the forehead would have been immediately disabling and was therefore in all likelihood the last.

Both the shot to his left side (stomach/liver) and right side of back (kidney) would individually have been fatal in 10 to 20 minutes.

The head and body had been beaten with a hard but supple weapon consistent with the cosh Yusupov refers to.

The gentiles were crushed with the same weapon.  This is indicative of a sexual/revenge attack.

The face was considerably disfigured

It is impossible to identify whether certain injuries were caused ante or post mortem – for instance hitting the bridge supports.

Richard


























I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815

Offline Arleen

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #352 on: January 19, 2006, 10:34:59 AM »
You make it clear Richard....

Arleen

leushino

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #353 on: January 19, 2006, 11:25:54 AM »
Quote
You make it clear Richard....

Arleen



Well... almost clear. Just one small exception, Richard.

You say his gentiles were crushed with the same instrument. Don't you mean, his genitals? lol

Otherwise, good summary. Carry on.  ;)

Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #354 on: January 19, 2006, 01:43:21 PM »
quite right - sorry

Richard
I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815

Offline DavidP

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #355 on: January 19, 2006, 06:30:10 PM »
Quote
My Commentary on the Kossorotov Post Mortem and the Zharov, Panov and Vasilevskiy Report

The gentiles were crushed with the same weapon.  This is indicative of a sexual/revenge attack.


Do we then have two different motivations for Rasputin’s murder? Is this what the evidence suggests? We  have the testimony from Felix, Pureshkevich etc which says that the motivation for Rasputin’s murder was to preserve the integrity of the Romanov Dynasty which had been damaged by  association with Rasputin.
Yet, the autopsy evidence suggests that the damage inflicted to Rasputin’s genitals had a sexual/revenge motive. Doesn’t this then suggest that there was something else (as opposed to the stated motive of removing a perceived threat to the monarchy) going on in the heads of at least one of the assassins?

Why do you think  the assassin (s) would  feel the need to attack Rasputin’s body in this manner?

leushino

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #356 on: January 19, 2006, 07:26:50 PM »
Quote

Why do you think  the assassin (s) would  feel the need to attack Rasputin’s body in this manner?



Just a thought, but it seems to me that they were giving vent to their indignation over the licentious manner in which Rasputin had behaved among the upper class. He degraded them (even though they willingly participated) as well as contributed to the decline of the dynasty and simplyl killing him did not give enough personal satisfaction.

Offline Grishka

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #357 on: January 19, 2006, 10:09:38 PM »
If they killed Rasputin for purely social reasons, then they killed him because he was a peasant and had more power than a peasant should have, in their eyes. The upper classes were getting away with more licentious behavior than Rasputin ever dreamt of, but they were entitled to it, apparently. I'm thinking of Yusopov's propensity to dress like a woman and pick up men.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #358 on: January 19, 2006, 11:44:05 PM »
Those seem to me pretty shallow justifcations for a calculated murder. Not saying they are incorrect, just that I would think that there must have been a more political purpose. If it were just a "society" murder, why go through all the subtrefuge ?  Just hire it done and be over with it.
I am sure, even with his connections to the IF, that he could have "dissapeared" convienently with no fanfare.
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Offline Richard_Cullen

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Re: Rasputin's Murder
« Reply #359 on: January 20, 2006, 03:04:29 AM »
Hi

I think there could be many reasons for why he was killed and many people had different motivations for wanting him dead, war, his influence, possibly sexual inferences.

Equally we don't know who was PRESENT when he was killed, I am not talking about the actually murderers but other 'witnesses' - watchers if you like.

I was concerned when I saw that his testicles had been crushed and consulted a friend and work colleague of mine who is a well respected Professor of Forensic Psychology.  he was of the view that such injuries would tend to show a pseudo sexual motive.

Equally I have seen and studies cases where damage has been called to sexual organs as a way of cusing intense pain (obviously) and on the other hand demeaning an individual.

So it is quite open.  I think the higher level motives prompted the murder, but some of the lower level motivations may have come into play.

Richard
I feel like one
Who treads alone
Some banquet-hall deserted,
Whose lights are fled,
Whose garlands dead,
And all, but he, departed!
Refrain:
Thus, in the stilly night,
Ere slumber’s chain hath bound me,
Sad mem’ry brings the light
Of other days around me.

Thomas Moore 1815