Author Topic: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?  (Read 114169 times)

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Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #180 on: February 27, 2012, 10:13:56 AM »
...and what exactly Queen Mary is supposed to have said. I have never read any of Queen Mary views of Empress Alexandra, if they do exist I would love to know them!!!
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Vanya Ivanova

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #181 on: February 27, 2012, 11:28:28 AM »


I think that if we really want to know what Aleaxndra's contemporaries thought of her we HAVE to stick to hard facts. Alexandra just like Marie Antoinette has an 'infamous' reputation as she was made the scapegoat for all the evils of a failed regime. Therefore its even more important to look at documentary evidence to support our statements otherwise its gets caught up in all the myths and legends not the real person or the historical facts.

Antonia Fraser's book Marie Antoinette categorically states that she never said '' let them eat cake''  or that there is no evidence but that is sadly what she remembered for. Also don't forget that most of the slander against Alexandra is from 'Soviet' sources. I agree with Brassov when he said people give their opinions on this forum and i'm not trying to 'tell anyone off' as it were. I just feel Alexandra's reputation is so surrounded by mis- information and propaganda that we have to be 'extra careful'.

Offline Petr

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #182 on: February 27, 2012, 11:33:36 AM »
Not to tread on anyone's toes, but the relationship between England and Russia was historically rather difficult, principally because England saw Russia as a threat to its imperial interests (i.e., India), hence it was always English policy for most of the 19th Century right through the Civil War (e.g., Lloyd George pulling the plug on the White Army in the Crimea), for example, to block Russia from gaining control over the Dardenelles and also it was reflected in the Crimean War, the "Great Game" played out in Afghanistan and Persia and the refusal to permit the Russian Baltic Fleet to transit the Suez Canal and to use English coaling stations on its way round the world to meet its doom in the straits of Tsushima. I think that this was also reflected in the views of Russia in the English Royal Family which reflected the general English public's view, in part, because of the different traditions and views of monarchy (viz., a constitutional monarchy versus an autocracy). There was a general disapproving view of Tsarist Russia which was certainly held by Queen Victoria. There was also cultural incomprehension  (viz., Churchill's "an enigma wrapped in.." (although I think he was referring more to Soviet Russia)). A story I was told growing up (I can't verify it) illustrating the perceived insensitivity of the English RF (in the view of some members of the Russian Aristocracy) was that when GD Xenia visited with Queen Mary (a noted collector) the Queen showed her a locket she had acquired containing hair from OTMA but failed to give it to the GD, which was viewed with dismay given the tragic fate of her nieces.

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Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #183 on: February 27, 2012, 11:59:57 AM »
A story I was told growing up (I can't verify it) illustrating the perceived insensitivity of the English RF (in the view of some members of the Russian Aristocracy) was that when GD Xenia visited with Queen Mary (a noted collector) the Queen showed her a locket she had acquired containing hair from OTMA but failed to give it to the GD, which was viewed with dismay given the tragic fate of her nieces.

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Who makes these stories up??? In another account it is supposed to have been a box with Xenia's initials on, Queen Mary decides to show of her her latest purchase and exclaims, "I wonder whose initials these are?" Xenia replies "They are mine" Queen Mary then returns the box to her cabinet exclaiming "It's mine now". Both stories are a load of rubbish, as anyone who knows anything about Queen Mary can vouch. She was kindness personified.
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Robert_Hall

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #184 on: February 27, 2012, 12:25:05 PM »
I do not know about Queen Mary's kindness, Eddie, but I certainly agree that those statements are rubbish, right out of a movie script. Which reminds me of a play I saw in London a few years ago which was about her acquisitiveness. That quote was in the play- it was a comedy, BTW.

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #185 on: February 27, 2012, 01:26:40 PM »
Dear Robert, Queen Mary was very generous & thoughtful to Grand Duchess Xenia, Princess Victoria of Hesse & Princess Victoria of Wales too name a few!! Just a few of the reasons that I hold her in such high esteem. :)

Your quite right, it's sensationalist rubbish, right out of a movie!  ;)
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Alixz

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #186 on: February 27, 2012, 01:43:05 PM »
The relationship between England and Russia was even unsteady during the reign of Catherine II.  King George III asked Catherine for Russian soldiers to help fight in the American Revolution and she said "no".  So, of course, he hired the Hessians and von Steuben.

At that point, Catherine was beginning a relationship with Austria and pulling away from her treaties with Prussia.  However she was not at all interested in treaties with England at that time.

That was in the 1770s and I don't think that England and Russia were on very good terms until Alexander III pulled out of the "Three Emperor's League" and became attached to France.  Back in the 1770s England and France were fighting all the time as well and their friendly relations did not come for many years.

Of course the Crimean War did not help the relationship between England and Russia at all and that was during the reign of Alexander II.

Robert_Hall

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #187 on: February 27, 2012, 03:10:50 PM »
No argument from me, Eddie. I  do not read as much about her as you do. I just cited the play as an example of her embellished reputation.. And, even at that, the play was not all that funny.
 But this is off topic from the subject at hand, is it not ?
 I just get the sense that many of Alexandra's royal relations  did not care for much for her, for whatever reasons they might have had.  Of course, appearances  counted the most so cordiality would have been the rule, no matter how they felt,.

Offline Petr

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #188 on: February 27, 2012, 04:37:15 PM »
Who makes these stories up??? In another account it is supposed to have been a box with Xenia's initials on, Queen Mary decides to show of her her latest purchase and exclaims, "I wonder whose initials these are?" Xenia replies "They are mine" Queen Mary then returns the box to her cabinet exclaiming "It's mine now". Both stories are a load of rubbish, as anyone who knows anything about Queen Mary can vouch. She was kindness personified.

Personally, I would be surprised if that story was true because it strikes me as uncharacteristic of someone of her station, however, I merely cite it as an example of the perception among Russian emigres about the view of the RF towards the Tsar and his family. Of course, the whole business about the failure to afford the IF safe haven rankles and as cited the relationship with England was traditionally difficult. Finally, there were the intrigues of Ambassador Buchanan and his support of the oppositionists.

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Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #189 on: February 28, 2012, 01:28:44 AM »
According to a Channel 4 documentary; Queen Victorias Descendants. King George V was still trying to rescue the IF right up to the end.  :(
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Vanya Ivanova

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #190 on: February 28, 2012, 04:20:03 AM »


It was entirely down to George V that the offer of asylum for the IF was withdrawn. Lloyd George's government didn't want to withdraw as it was seen as 'bad form' after it had been extended. George V wrote many many times to the point of harassment and some argue acted 'unconstitutionally' in his demands that the IF not be allowed to take exile in Britain.

He did this because as Petr stated the Tsar was very unpopular in England at that time was seen as a tyrant by many. His close relationship to the British Royal family was just another difficult association to add to their very 'teutonic' back ground during a war with Germany. We will never know if George V fully understood the danger the IF was in at that point, but to be fair until Ekateringburg the family themselves did not understand this. But it was motivated by politics not personal views.

Queen Mary grew up as 'poor relation' in royal circles and her parents were often financially embarassed. Her later 'aquisitional' behaviour is well documented. Her son the Duke of Windsor is reliably quoted as saying that ''in her veins where blood should have flowed there was ice''. But that was complicated and i don't feel the 'final word' on her character by any means. I fail to see how she could have formed a strong opinion of Alexandra, they only met a handful of times. George V however saw a great deal of both Nicholas and Alexandra growing up. So his opinion would carry more weight.

Offline Petr

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #191 on: February 28, 2012, 06:16:44 AM »
HIH Alexandra Feodorvna comes into a great deal of criticism from many in the Forum some of it quite harsh and unfair in my view. Like every human being she was not one sided but, understandably given her background and position, was complex and subject to stress both mental and physical. However, she possessed many admirable qualities as well. Griff is currently working on a book on her war time charitable efforts and there are many examples of her steadfast loyalty to friends and her numerous anonymous kindnesses. Had that peculiar confluence of events that characterized late imperial Russia not created a "perfect storm" history may well have viewed her quite differently. It is easy judging someone in hindsight (and often not knowing all the facts) and I am guilty of this as well on occasion but as the saying goes "don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes." Given that Lent has just started a precept well worth remembering.


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Offline edubs31

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #192 on: February 28, 2012, 10:08:38 AM »
HIH Alexandra Feodorvna comes into a great deal of criticism from many in the Forum some of it quite harsh and unfair in my view. Like every human being she was not one sided but, understandably given her background and position, was complex and subject to stress both mental and physical. However, she possessed many admirable qualities as well. Griff is currently working on a book on her war time charitable efforts and there are many examples of her steadfast loyalty to friends and her numerous anonymous kindnesses. Had that peculiar confluence of events that characterized late imperial Russia not created a "perfect storm" history may well have viewed her quite differently. It is easy judging someone in hindsight (and often not knowing all the facts) and I am guilty of this as well on occasion but as the saying goes "don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes." Given that Lent has just started a precept well worth remembering.

Very well said Petr, thanks for sharing that!

I struggle so much with Alexandra that it gives me a headache! She's just a walking mass of complexities and contradictions. I think a great woman lurked inside of her so in my mind there was clearly sufficient capacity for her to have effected the world in a mostly positive way...but therein lies the frustration so many of us feel for her as well. Ultimately it was her inability to overcome obstacles that proved fatal for herself, her family and her empire. But even this is far too vague an assessment...

As you pointed out we all have multiple sides to our personalities and this is certainly no less the case with Alix. We often fall into a trap of judging one another based on a specific role that in our mind takes precedence over all others. Ex: That a person is an incredibly kind matters not if they are a lousy coworker...that someone is a terrible parent matters little if they were a great leader, etc. But is Alexandra's perceived "failure" as an Empress a reflection of her failures in other roles as wife, mother, person...or should it be judged separately...a category unto itself that is neither appropriately ignored nor comes close to summing up the woman and her legacy?

It would seem to me that those living in the era, British royalty or otherwise, had both an advantage and were disadvantaged in comparison to the hindsight judgement we cast. There is surely a level of intimate knowledge many of them possessed. This based on personal contact and first hand accounts of a woman they knew (or thought they knew) that we could never match. On the other hand even those who had contact with her were, with few exceptions, not privy the vast amount of knowledge we now have. Piles of documents, diaries, evidence after the fact, etc. This equips us well in the role of historical jury but knowing how to actually judge the Empress, mother, wife, person, etc is another matter completely...
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Offline Petr

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #193 on: February 28, 2012, 12:00:43 PM »

By the way, you should not regard my comment as an attempt to totally white wash AF or to excuse her all mistakes. That she had character faults is undeniable and, perhaps because of her position, she can be judged as a political actor in which case the results are fair game. Many thoughtful contemporaries and independent observers were highly critical of her (and I'm not only speaking of other members of the IF who may have had personal axes to grind). It's just that I think balance is required. Until Massie's book forty six years ago (tempered as it was by the author's own personal experience with hemophilia) I think the general view of AF was wholly negative (apart from certain memoirs of close personal acquaintances). His book introduced a personal tragic dimension to the analysis that was theretofore missing.  BTW, the thread "Alexandra fights back" has a lot to say on this view so my comments may be repetitive and off topic.

In general, you are absolutely correct that the personal knowledge of contemporaries must carry significant weight but some historical distance is supposed to introduce a measure of objectivity to the analysis. That is what makes the study of history so fascinating and difficult (for example, I know many historians criticize the use of newspaper accounts as primary source material).

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Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?
« Reply #194 on: February 28, 2012, 12:38:17 PM »
It was entirely down to George V that the offer of asylum for the IF was withdrawn. Lloyd George's government didn't want to withdraw as it was seen as 'bad form' after it had been extended. George V wrote many many times to the point of harassment and some argue acted 'unconstitutionally' in his demands that the IF not be allowed to take exile in Britain.


Well the Duke of Windsor also said that his father was not credited enough for doing all he could to save the IF.  Anyway I tend not to take much notice about anything the Duke said or wrote, and as for the "ice in her viens " I don't see what that has to do with anything?

If you watch Queen Victoria's Descendants it states that recent evidence had come to light that George V had trusted advisors (?Spies) in the area around the area of Ekaterinburg. It's a long time since I watched it and was interesting. Please share your references that Lloyd Georges goverment where keen to offer asylum, thanks!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 12:39:52 PM by Eddie_uk »
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