Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?

[feodorovna]

Darius, I agree entirely with all you say. I have always tried to fight Alexandra's corner. I feel that there were numerous moments throughout her life  when she subconsciously returned to how she felt when her siblings and her mother died, helpless, alone, frightened. Perhaps it was then that she learned to hide her feelings because all around her were so concerned with their own grief that they overlooked hers. Who can say what responsibility she may have felt because they were dead and she was alive. I imagine, that for the rest of her life she strove to prevent change because change scared her and this may be a reason for her fight to keep Russia the way it had always been. Did she believe that, as an adult, she was responsible for making it a safe place for her son, just as a child, she may have felt that because of certain behaviours on her part, she may have been responsible for the deaths in her family and could that be the reason she had, for so long, failed to produce a son and when she did she had passed on to him a potentially fatal flaw?  Might it be that guilt, entrenched since childhood, was the basis for her deep involvement with the Church? We are all products of our childhood experiences, good and bad, but we, unlike Alexandra, are unlikely to be accused of causing the downfall of a Dynysty. Being Alexandra must have been the lonliest place in the world.

[Kalafrana]

Hm. We are given the picture of Alexandra being overlooked and forgotten at the time of her mother's death, but I'd be interested to see the evidence. I can't help wondering whether it was the elder sisters, rather than Alexandra and Ernst, who were expected to cope and get on with their lives. Interestingly, in later life they were copers, and Alexandra wasn't.

Ann

[Helen]

I feel that there were numerous moments throughout her life  when she subconsciously returned to how she felt when her siblings and her mother died, helpless, alone, frightened.

Indeed. Perhaps it was not overlooked at the time, but one thing I think historians often pay little attention to is that, when Grand Duchess Alice and Princess May died and Ernst Ludwig and Irene being 4 and 6 years older, Alix did not only lose her mother, but also lost her playmate and buddy to explore/face the world with.

Most have barely read part of the immense correspondence etc...

All we can do is not to hide documentation to support our own ideas or quoting it out of context...

Unfortunately, only part of these correspondences has been published and it takes quite an effort and a lot of money to get them published and made available to the public. However, I wholeheartedly agree with your recommendation to read those personal documents that have been published and not to ignore sources or quote them out of context.


One book that springs to mind as relevant to this thread and to blunt statements such as “Alix was haughty and aloof” or “Alix took pleasure in being doleful” [from “The Four Graces” by Ilana Miller] or “Alix, you always play at being sorrowful” [by Princess Marie Louise] is the one by Lotte Hoffmann-Kuhnt (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=11685.0 ; http://www.amazon.co.uk/Briefe-Zarin-Alexandra-Russland-Jugendfreundin/dp/3837098842/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326292284&sr=8-1). It includes the letters written by Princess Alix to her friend Toni Becker. In these letters, Alix writes about the gossiping and scheming to pair her and Eddy off and how this affected her visit to her grandmother in 1889; about the constant talk about Nicholas, with probing glances and insinuations, which seems to have made her visit to her grandmother in the summer of 1891 an exhausting ordeal and affected her relation with her sister Victoria at the time; and about her being criticised by relatives over and over and over again for not smiling ‘enough’, appearing haughty and unsociable, and how utterly miserable this constant criticism and her relatives’ refusal to acknowledge her efforts made her feel.

This is, of course, just my opinion but I think that her relatives managed to give Alix a clear message that she would be criticised by relatives and be the subject of their gossip, no matter what she did or did not do and no matter how hard she tried to meet their expectations. She learned to hide her feelings, not to let constant criticism and gossip worry her too much and to go her own way, so she did cope.

So bad that at the end, she banished her own sister for trying to help her?

I think that, in part, Ella had herself to blame for Alexandra not accepting her ‘help’. Despite her alleged tact and good judgement of human character, Ella seems to have pushed all the wrong buttons. Ella also had issues of her own, and various statements and actions of her suggest to me that she was not that 'wise' at all and that her intentions weren’t as pure as she herself may have thought them to be, to put it politely. I don’t think I would have turned to a person like Ella for help or advice, unless in matters of little or no consequence.

While I know that the quotes from Empress Marie's letters to her sister were made during a time of great strife in the Russian capital and very close to the murder of Grand Duke Sergei, I commend her for taking the time to try to make the Alexander Palace a more cheerful place for those who lived there and those who were hardly ever invited to visit.

When Maria Feodorovna was writing her letter in February 1905, the country was involved in the Russo-Japanese war and a revolution was going on, but it was also written not too long after Alexei had his first alarming bleeding, that is, at a time when Nicholas and Alexandra were probably still struggling very much to cope and come to terms with this tragic news and trying to figure out how to deal with various consequences - practical or emotional, short term or long term - of their only son and heir having this condition. Although I agree with you that occasional luncheon parties may help to cheer people up, I still find it disappointing that MF basically ignored the situation, showed little consideration, mocked her daughter-in-law and prided herself on making N&A organize such rather shallow entertainment.

 In times of strife, we should be able to depend on our friends and relatives, ….

I agree, but I doubt that more luncheon or dinner parties would have brought them friends that stayed in trying times.

[Alixz]

One of the posts we often see here is one that says we don't know what it was like to walk in Alix's "boots" or "shoes".  While none of us will ever be Empress of Russia, how is it that posters automatically assume that others here have never suffered the loss of a child or the illness of a child that is incurable.

Others may have suffered the early loss of a parent or sibling.

No one should be making the suggestion that posters have no right to criticize Alix just because posters may not have divulged their own life stresses and strife.

No one can judge any of us until they have walked in our "boots" or  "shoes".

No one is going to change their view of Alix. No matter where we got it from it is going to stay with us. And, just one more thing, if we have suffered the same or similar stress or similar heartache and handled it differently or better or even worse we are entitled to our opinions and should not be scolded for expressing them.

This is, after all, a discussion form and that is what we are doing. Discussing.

[Thomas_Hesse]

One of the posts we often see here is one that says we don't know what it was like to walk in Alix's "boots" or "shoes".  While none of us will ever be Empress of Russia, how is it that posters automatically assume that others here have never suffered the loss of a child or the illness of a child that is incurable.

I mean we read a lot on protocol and official court functions and such - but I don't think that we can ever imagine how it would really have been to live with such repression (think of Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna who always seems to have felt trapped in imperial surroundings).
Most of us are "private" persons with "ordinary" jobs. Queen Elizabeth once said so very pronounced words as: most people have their jobs and then they go home. In my existence the life and the job go together and go on.
Alexandra "pauses" were rare. And she might not always have had the stability to go through this existence. What do we do if we have troubles but no possible solution? We transform ourselves to handle it.
Back then analytic psychology was still far from being acknowledged - people with a trauma were called "hysteric". Today we call it "burn out syndrome"  etc and we get a therapy and time off.
Alexandra was no Elisabeth of Austria - she would take her responsibilities with enormous seriousness which is proven by various letters and she would function even in times when she did not feel well. The result is the somewhat twisted and ambivalent image that today's historians  and even contemporary descriptions provide.

If I read her letters I never got the impression of a neurotic person. On the contrary: Alix of Hesse had a very clear mind and organizational skills

[Helen]

No one is going to change their view of Alix. No matter where we got it from it is going to stay with us.

This may tell us a lot about your attitude, but I strongly object to your generalisation. Plenty of people have read books or read or participated in discussions that adjusted or substantially changed their views of historical people, including Alix. If no one is going to change their views, then what’s the use of opening archives, presenting new evidence, and writing or reading books on historical subjects?

And, just one more thing, if we have suffered the same or similar stress or similar heartache and handled it differently or better or even worse we are entitled to our opinions and should not be scolded for expressing them.

Yes, we are entitled to our opinions and should not be scolded for expressing them. However, I think it’s a pity that discussions about Alexandra are sometimes hampered by blunt or patently incorrect statements by members who give me the impression that criticising Alexandra is part of their own coping mechanisms and who seem to ignore certain sources that may prove them wrong or might change their views.

[Helen]

I mean we read a lot on protocol and official court functions and such - but I don't think that we can ever imagine how it would really have been to live with such repression (think of Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna who always seems to have felt trapped in imperial surroundings).
…
Today we call it "burn out syndrome"  etc and we get a therapy and time off.
Alexandra was no Elisabeth of Austria - she would take her responsibilities with enormous seriousness which is proven by various letters and she would function even in times when she did not feel well. The result is the somewhat twisted and ambivalent image that today's historians  and even contemporary descriptions provide.
If I read her letters I never got the impression of a neurotic person. On the contrary: Alix of Hesse had a very clear mind and organizational skills

Exactly! Conceptions of the job of an Empress differ and also differed in the 1890s and first decades of the 20th century. It’s clear that Alexandra, instead of considering attendance of balls and dinner parties and cutting tapes as her core business, found fund-raising and social work far more satisfying and stimulating – not unlike her mother. I doubt, however, that Alexandra, at the time of her engagement, was sufficiently aware of the differences between the English and Russian courts and of the limited scope that she would get to take initiatives to make the best use of her talents.

As Sophie Buxhoeveden wrote: “Duty [to her husband’s country] seemed to her above all to be social work”, but Alexandra “had to fight not only against inertia, but often against great opposition to the introduction of new ideas. The difficulty of providing funds for her schemes was generally used as an argument against them, for there was not in Russia that ready response from private charity which is usual in England.” [“The Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Feodorovna”, pp. 55 and 79-80]

[Kalafrana]

'It’s clear that Alexandra, instead of considering attendance of balls and dinner parties and cutting tapes as her core business, found fund-raising and social work far more satisfying and stimulating – not unlike her mother.'

True. But attending the odd ball would not have got in the way of her social work - after all, she had an entire household to organise the palace functions. It's not simply that she didn't like balls and dinner parties, she seems to have disliked the entire Russian aristocracy and made no attempt to reach out to them.

Ann

[Helen]

True. But attending the odd ball would not have got in the way of her social work - after all, she had an entire household to organise the palace functions. It's not simply that she didn't like balls and dinner parties, she seems to have disliked the entire Russian aristocracy and made no attempt to reach out to them.

Alexandra probably did have a dislike of some members of the aristocracy - Miechen started spreading fabrications within weeks from Alexander III's death. And fêtes and amusements meant nothing to her, as Buxhoeveden wrote. However, I don't think it is fair to suggest that she made no attempt to reach out to the Russian aristocracy. They often received relatives in 1895, and after mourning for Alexander III had ended, Alexandra did receive people and attend the odd ball/theater performance/dinner party. A brief glance at some letters written by Alexandra in 1896 shows that she went to the theater several times, "received ladies and gentlemen every day", attended regiment fests and parades and dinners and held cercles , even though she dreaded the last. So she did attempt to reach out to the aristocracy. And then there were the coronation festivities and visits to Austria, the UK, France, Hesse and Wilhelm II.

Her health was clearly a factor that prevented her from attending certain events later. At the end of 1896, she was ordered to keep to her bed, for more than six weeks, and had to sit during receptions after that, during her second pregnancy. And "In the years when she was neither expecting nor nursing a baby, she invariably fell ill. One winter she had influenza three times; another year she had measles; then the children were ill. There seemed to be always something that at the last moment prevented the Empress from giving the small receptions through which she would have known society better and have become better known herself. " [Buxhoeveden, “The Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Feodorovna”, pp. 77-8]  

Perhaps there were periods during the seasons of 1899-1903 when Alexandra wasn't ill and could have organized some small-scale luncheon or dinner parties, I don't know;  I don't have detailed information on her health and activities from day to day for these years. But sadly, if there were, it seems that she had given up by then. "As time went on, her increasing family took up more and more of her attention, and she gave up the struggle to contrive to make time in which to see people outside her immediate and easily accessible entourage". [Buxhoeveden, “The Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Feodorovna”, p. 78]

[Alixz]

All of the personal reasons that are given to excuse Alix from doing her job a empress are simply excuses.

She was not a private citizen and she married a Tsar not an ordinary day worker. Kings and Queens and Tsars and Empresses work 24/7. Even the President of the United States works 24/7.

The illnesses of children (do we even know when they are ill?) do not result in Michelle Obama missing State Dinners or Queen Elizabeth (or King George, Queen Mary, Queen Victoria - the list could go on and on) missing State functions?

Nicholas the man was also Nicholas the Tsar. She married both and chose to ignore the responsibilities that went with the job. She chose, with Nicholas's consent, of course, to cocoon her family at the Alexander Palace. Had Nicholas been a stronger person (and I blame him, too) perhaps he would have told her to "suck it up" and get on with the family business which was ruling the country.

But it seems to me that my main point was missed. We all have problems and some of us may have problems that are equal to or greater than those "suffered" by Alix.  And we handle them without nannies and ladies in waiting and chefs and footmen and dressers and maids. Some may even handle problems without a "loving husband" at our sides, but those problems are handled.

We juggle our needs and wants and obligations and do what needs to be done. We don't lay back in a "mauve room" and write letters and embroider and then complain that our in laws don't like or understand us. All the while our children are being tended to by nannies and tutors and doctors who come on a daily basis as well as on command. In our lives we would be lucky to get an appointment with a doctor sometime in the next three months! And there would certainly be no house calls.

I feel sorry for Alix and her "trials and tribulations" but I will never see that she had any better claim to being "sorrowful" than the average family whose child is permanently in a wheel chair because she suffers from cerebral palsy and can not even control her arms let alone run about being an "L'Enfant terrible" as both Anastasia and Alexei were.

The family I know who does have a child in this situation struggles and copes. The mom is strong and the dad is just as strong. They do everything they can to make their daughter's life as normal as possible. Both mom and dad work. They have to to keep up with the ever increasing cost of medical attention. No "mauve rooms" for that mom and no lack of friends and/or social life either. They juggle and juggle and juggle, but they don't whine and complain and turn to questionable "faith healers" for answers.

[Alixz]

But the topic is "Was Alix of Hesse disliked by British royals?" not was she or is she disliked by those of us who post here.

I am not saying that no one should post a rebuttal (I have been accused of that before when I try to get a topic back on track), but, as angry as I get when I think of Alix and all she had and how she abused it and lost it, that is not the topic and, as moderator, I have to urge us all to get back to it.

My apologies.

[Kalafrana]

It would be interesting to get a comparison with the way relations regarded Irene, who, of course, had two haemophiliac sons.

I know Irene burnt her own correspondence, but I imagine their are plenty of references to her in other people's.

As I understand it, Irene and Heinrich were well-liked by most of their relations.

Ann

[Helen]

It would be interesting to get a comparison with the way relations regarded Irene, who, of course, had two haemophiliac sons.
I know Irene burnt her own correspondence, but I imagine their are plenty of references to her in other people's.
As I understand it, Irene and Heinrich were well-liked by most of their relations.
Ann

I recently read that Irene preferred a quieter, more private life, too, because of the illness of her boys and the stress it caused. I don't remember where I read it; it could be "The Four Graces".

[darius]

All of the personal reasons that are given to excuse Alix from doing her job a empress are simply excuses.

She was not a private citizen and she married a Tsar not an ordinary day worker. Kings and Queens and Tsars and Empresses work 24/7. Even the President of the United States works 24/7.

The illnesses of children (do we even know when they are ill?) do not result in Michelle Obama missing State Dinners or Queen Elizabeth (or King George, Queen Mary, Queen Victoria - the list could go on and on) missing State functions?

Nicholas the man was also Nicholas the Tsar. She married both and chose to ignore the responsibilities that went with the job. She chose, with Nicholas's consent, of course, to cocoon her family at the Alexander Palace. Had Nicholas been a stronger person (and I blame him, too) perhaps he would have told her to "suck it up" and get on with the family business which was ruling the country.

But it seems to me that my main point was missed. We all have problems and some of us may have problems that are equal to or greater than those "suffered" by Alix.  And we handle them without nannies and ladies in waiting and chefs and footmen and dressers and maids. Some may even handle problems without a "loving husband" at our sides, but those problems are handled.

We juggle our needs and wants and obligations and do what needs to be done. We don't lay back in a "mauve room" and write letters and embroider and then complain that our in laws don't like or understand us. All the while our children are being tended to by nannies and tutors and doctors who come on a daily basis as well as on command. In our lives we would be lucky to get an appointment with a doctor sometime in the next three months! And there would certainly be no house calls.

I feel sorry for Alix and her "trials and tribulations" but I will never see that she had any better claim to being "sorrowful" than the average family whose child is permanently in a wheel chair because she suffers from cerebral palsy and can not even control her arms let alone run about being an "L'Enfant terrible" as both Anastasia and Alexei were.

The family I know who does have a child in this situation struggles and copes. The mom is strong and the dad is just as strong. They do everything they can to make their daughter's life as normal as possible. Both mom and dad work. They have to to keep up with the ever increasing cost of medical attention. No "mauve rooms" for that mom and no lack of friends and/or social life either. They juggle and juggle and juggle, but they don't whine and complain and turn to questionable "faith healers" for answers.

I agree that we should return to the topic of the opinions of the British and maybe even other families opions regarding the Empress however I feel that your post merits a response for a number of issues.  I think what is forgotten here is what the 1. role of the Empress; 2. the psychology of the Empress and.her family history amongst other issues.
1. Ther role of Empress was very much what the incumbent made of it.  It wasn´t to be a leader of society, dance until 2, entertain lavishly.  St Petersburg already had leaders like these from the Imperial Family in the Dowager Empress, Grand Duchess Serge and Grand Duchess Vladimir to name but a few.  Alexandra´s role was very much to produce an Heir and support the Emperor which she did up until the end when many a weaker person would have fled to a spa for respite.  Alexandra´s influence on the Tsar was indubitably a contributing factor in the fall of the Empire, so too was the fact that so many of the Imperial Family cared for nothing more than this vacuous life.
2. We all react to pressure and stress in many ways.  We cannot compare the Empress´s reaction to the tragedies in her life or her daily trails to thos of another person, much less to those of a 21st century person, tragic and difficult as many cases are, and furthermore to a person who held the weight of history on her shoulders and the future of an entire way of life in their hands.
It should also be remembered that Alexandra had something of a history of "Melancholy" in her family.  You forget Alixz that Alexandra´s maternal grandmother Queen Victoria did indeed retreat from the world in a much more dramatic sense than the Empress - she hardly appeared in public for a decade!  

Just a few points...

[feodorovna]

Darius, on another thread, perhaps forum, I have gone into some detail about how I saw Victoria's influence as chief female role model in Alexandras life after she lost her mother. IMO Victoria was an isolated child and as an adult much more at home with members of her staff that with the aristocracy, the same could be said of Alexandra. When it comes to the stubbornness that Alexandra has been accused of, and may well have inherited, if we compare her to her Grandmother, who had it down to a fine art when it came to doing only what she wanted, Alexandra was a pussycat. I am totally convinced that her life would have been very much easier had she shared her dreadful secret-Alexei's ilness-instead of trying to juggle things on her own and perhaps living in fear of it being revealed, but it is possible that she may have started to hide her feelings as a child and it had become her modus operandi.

So sorry, Alixz. Back to "Did the BRF dislike Alexandra?"I wonder just how much they knew about her everyday life. I imagine there was copious correspondence but I get the impression that Alexandra's view of motherhood differed somewhat from Mary's but a common ground might have been their diligent work for the war effort and their numerous mutual relatives. Undoubtedly, there would have been times, as in any family, when various members irritate, and some, at times, only tolerate each other. However, within the BRF at that time, I get little sense of strong emotional attachments, just polite interest. It would have been quite difficult for them to get a very clear picture of any family member who lived so far from them. Perhaps. like us, they relied on conjecture.