Author Topic: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform  (Read 67783 times)

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DanielB

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2009, 07:27:21 PM »
You are right AP: the colorist got it wrong : as for Russian cavalry officers, the gold (or silver) laced pouch belt was worn over orders’ sashes.

Student of History

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2009, 07:28:48 PM »
Thank you for your prompt replies.  I was referring to the last illustration ofTNII wearing a blue sash over the right shoudler.  I notice even some modern royals wear a blue sash over the right shoulder.  Is the sash just decorative?  Or does it represent something.  And if so, is there a different meaning attached to it when it is worn over the left v's right shoulder?

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2009, 07:43:49 PM »
"Student of History":  Daniel is exceptionally well-versed in militaria, thus I am certain that he will be preparing for you some valuable information/direction to your question/s.  The field of Orders, Decorations, etc., can be exceedingly huge, complex, and is a real "science" unto itself, comparable in many, many respects to heraldry.  Since you seem to wish to know more specifically about the "ribband of order" in the third illustration, you might wish to "google" the topic of Imperial Russia's "Order of Saint Andrew, the First-Called."  (It is interesting to know that it has been re-instated, with some variations, by the Russian Federation.)   Regards,  AP
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 07:52:33 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Student of History

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2009, 08:02:49 PM »
Thank you so much AP.  I am just new to all this, so will definitely look up more information on the OSA.

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2009, 08:07:20 PM »
My pleasure!  Good luck to you!   AP

DanielB

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2009, 10:21:45 PM »
AP : Thank you for your kind words ☺. Indeed, phaleristics, as uniformology, can be quite complex but I’ll try a short answer.

Student of History : The sashes you are referring to are parts of the highest class insignias of most Orders of Chivalry (Knighthood) or Orders of Merit. The badge (or cross) of these Orders are attached to these sashes. For some orders the sash is worn over the left shoulder, for others, over the right shoulder. There’s no special meaning regarding which shoulder they are worn on. The dark blue sash worn by modern (British) royals you mentioned is the « riband » of the highest British Order : the Order of the Garter (which has only one class).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Garter

As shown on Serov’s portrait, Nicholas II also wore it :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/shnuggy/3269028715/

The badge of the Order can be seen below his right arm, the star of the Order is shown on his left breast. He was invested into the Order (as Knight No. 802) by Queen Victoria in 1893 before he became Emperor.

The Imperial Russian Order of St. Andrew also had only one class. On special occasions, the badge was not worn suspended to the sash but rather from the Collar of the Order. When the collar was worn, the sash wasn’t, although a sash of a lesser order could be worn instead.

Other Orders had more than one class. Crosses (badges) of 2nd, 3rd or 4th class were not worn suspended from a sash but from a narrower ribbon either from the neck or on the breast, depending on the class. 

More information about Orders of Chivalry here :

http://www.almanachdechivalry.com/index.html

Imperial Russian Orders : http://www.almanachdechivalry.com/id9.html

Please note : long ago, in most armies, sashes were also worn over a shoulder as a rank insignia (usually for commissioned officers). In most cases, starting in the 18th or 19th century, they began to be worn at the waist (over the belt). So in his Preobrazhensky Regiment uniform, Nicholas II as 2 sashes : the sky blue one of a Knight of the Order of St. Andrew, and the silver one (with black & orange specks woven into it) common to all Russian officers (...except the Hussars which had another pattern). Still today though, for parades, some armies have sashes worn over a shoulder (e.g. British Infantry officers have crimson silk sashes, NCOs: scarlet wool). These have nothing to do with Orders of Chivalry.

Hope it helps!


« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 10:48:20 PM by Daniel Briere »

richard_1990

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2009, 11:15:55 PM »
Thanks Daniel and Mike  :) if you don't mind I have some more uniforms I'm interested in knowing the meaning of:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7154/1480kj3.jpg
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1885/nicholasdrawing.jpg
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6318/1254293938502.jpg (does anyone have a full photo of this uniform? it's quite interesting)

Student of History

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2009, 01:06:57 AM »
That is very generous of you Daniel, to explain it all so thoroughly. Thank you!  I see what Mike means by it being a science like heraldlry!
If you don't mind, I have another quick question regarding some of the features of the Hussar Life Guard uniform TN II is wearing in pic 1 (of original post).  I have noticed in militia pictures that (and apologies now for not calling it by its correct name) on most of the uniforms there are gold cords that go horizontally across the length of the jacket from button to button.  I noticed on the nobility and junior officers that they had 'swirls', like figure 8's on some of these cords as well.  Do all Russian military regiments have these 'swirls' or are some just straight horizontal lines across the jacket from button to button? (once again apologies for my ignorance!!!)

DanielB

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2009, 01:09:10 AM »
Hi Richard,

It seems you’re now in the Foreign Department!

Regarding the following:
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7154/1480kj3.jpg
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1885/nicholasdrawing.jpg
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6318/1254293938502.jpg

First one seems to be intended as a depiction of Nicholas II as Colonel-in-Chief of His Own German Hussar Regiment (Husaren-Regiment Kaiser Nikolaus II. von Rußland (1. Westfälisches) Nr. Eight). From what I know most colours are wrong (happened frequently on foreign made cards and pictures) : the attila (jacket) should be dark blue with white braiding, silver buttons and lace. Not sure about the pelisse’s colour. Here’s a photo taken in Berlin in 1913 (obviously from which the colour card was based upon); he's with his cousin George V (also in German uniform):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/84/Tsar_Nicholas_II_&_King_George_V.JPG

Seems to me the braid, lace and officer’s sash on both uniforms are indeed white & silver, not gold.

No. 2 shows the Emperor in the uniform of British Admiral of the Fleet. On June 11, 1908 when King Edward VII visited Russia he appointed his nephew as Honorary Admiral of the British Fleet. I think his uniform is in the Tsarskoe-Selo Museum collection. As he is wearing the Order of the Garter I guess the blue sash should be darker.

No. 3 isn’t Tsar Nicholas II as you might have noticed, but his other royal cousin, Kaiser Wilhem II in what looks like a German Admiral uniform. He was also Honorary Admiral in the Russian Navy and Chief of the Russian 13th Narva Hussar Regiment.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 01:12:37 AM by Daniel Briere »

DanielB

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2009, 01:40:22 AM »
That is very generous of you Daniel, to explain it all so thoroughly. Thank you!  I see what Mike means by it being a science like heraldlry!
If you don't mind, I have another quick question regarding some of the features of the Hussar Life Guard uniform TN II is wearing in pic 1 (of original post).  I have noticed in militia pictures that (and apologies now for not calling it by its correct name) on most of the uniforms there are gold cords that go horizontally across the length of the jacket from button to button.  I noticed on the nobility and junior officers that they had 'swirls', like figure 8's on some of these cords as well.  Do all Russian military regiments have these 'swirls' or are some just straight horizontal lines across the jacket from button to button? (once again apologies for my ignorance!!!)

Hi again Richard!

No need to apologize for your ignorance. Russian uniforms are a vast and very complicated world! Would the horizontal cords, swirls and 8s look like this?:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/2031A.jpg

If so, only the Hussar Regiments had them. I’ll show the various braids they used later.
 

Offline Mike

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2009, 02:58:05 AM »
I agree with Daniel regarding NII's picture in Live Hussars uniform. I haven't paid notice to the lack of a pelisse that would always be worn with a red dolman - which means he actually wears a dark blue vengerka.

As to the British admiral - are you sure he is Nicholas II and not George V? Right they are often hard to distinguish, but Nicholas would definitely wear his Vladimir 4th class on any uniform, including British (as the order's statute demanded), and that cross doesn't appear on the picture.

Student of History

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2009, 03:25:15 AM »
Hi again Richard!
No need to apologize for your ignorance. Russian uniforms are a vast and very complicated world! Would the horizontal cords, swirls and 8s look like this?:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/2031A.jpg
If so, only the Hussar Regiments had them. I’ll show the various braids they used later.
[/quote]

What a stunning jacket! Yes they are the swirls I was referring.  Although I have also seen a uniform with a double row (plain with no swirls) secured in three places.  Think a piece of cord wrapped around the top and bottom of a (gold?)button on the left, centre and right of a jacket.  Starting with the first double line from shoulder to shoulder and repeated to the waist of the jacket approx: an inch or two apart.
In the absence of an image the closest to a visual representation I can do, is:

0=====0====0
0====0====0
0====0====0

Have you ever come across a Russian uniform like this by any chance? 

richard_1990

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2009, 08:57:38 AM »
Thanks Daniel, it's interesting to know that alot of the images I have of Nicholas II are not of him in Russian uniform, would you happen to have him in admiral of the Russian navy or Commander in Chief of the army uniforms? Or whatever other uniforms he had for Russian units.

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2009, 01:10:06 PM »
Hello, Mike!  In regards to your posting #25 (relating to the illustration/drawing  at Reply #21, the second illustration, of the Emperor Nicholas II - and yes, it is he- You are looking for the 4th Class St. Vladimir on the uniform?  It is the first (left) medal on the medal bar.  I have personally seen one of these original medal bars twice in 1999 and 2000, and felt certain that the St. Vladimir was there.  To be certain, I looked it up:  It is illustration #155, pages 118-119, in the catalogue of the exhibition, "Nicholas & Alexandra - The Last Imperial Family of Tsarist Russia," Harry N. Abrams, Publisher 1998, ISBN 0-8109-3687-9.  In enumerating and describing the medals, it is listed as "Badge of the Order of St. Vladimir, 4th Degree, Gold, enamel, 34x 46 mm." There are 10 assembled medals on the one that I saw and is said to be "after 1915."  The bar in the drawing to which we are referring here shows 6, BUT still with the St. Vladimir as the first.  With best regards,  AP
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 01:18:00 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Mike

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Re: czar Nicholas with military, Identification order uniform
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2009, 01:25:54 PM »
If you mean a cross that looks black, with a very dark ribbon - well, it may pass for St. Vladimir-4 if one knows for certain that it must be there. And if so, it does make the admiral Nicholas rather than George.