Author Topic: Locating the Sickroom  (Read 16814 times)

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Offline Sarushka

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Locating the Sickroom
« on: December 20, 2009, 02:42:48 PM »
I believe I've finally pinpointed the possible location and layout of the AP sickroom. On a previous thread, gleb suggested the sickroom might be #60 on Yakovlev's 1928 floorplan -- as far as I've been able to determine, he was right.

Nicholas's diary
"Tuesday Feb 26 [1913] Tsarskoe Selo
...at 3:00 we moved to Tsarskoe Selo...Tatiana was separated and placed next to the big playroom..."

Tatiana's diary, 26 February 1913:
"...I have been isolated from my sisters and I live here with Shura in the room situated between the playroom and Sonya Orbeliani's one. While I am ill Mother comes to see me every day between 2 and 5 p.m..."

Second floor plan of the AP:


I have to presume the playroom Nicholas and Tatiana mention is room #52, labeled on this plan as "The Corner Drawing Room." Given that, room #64 seem like the obvious candidate, but there is no stove in that room. (Further, the stove in the small adjoining room is in the wrong corner.) In fact, none of the rooms along the outer wall of that wing have the proper configuration of stove, doors, and windows. Only the courtyard side fits the requirements, and of those rooms, only #60, "Benckendorf's Drawing Room" has the doorway to the corridor positioned to match the photos we have of the sickroom. Here's a rough image of how I think the furniture was laid out in 1913:



The initials are placed to match the positions of the imperial family in these photos:









« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 02:44:38 PM by Sarushka »
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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2009, 03:21:09 PM »
Step aside Sherlocke Holmes, Sara is on the case! This is actually REALLY interesting, I'd never stopped to think where the room was. I think it's just swell you bothered to take the time to do this : D

Offline nena

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2009, 08:20:32 PM »
Well done! However here is larger image of 2nd Floor Plan, but still numbers are barely visible (but you copy contains clearer numeration) :



Btw, we have ruler, and proportions, so any dimension of any room can be easily calculated.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 08:25:07 PM by nena »
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Offline Ortino

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 02:02:42 PM »
It seems that Sarushka is correct. Nice job!

The amount of sunlight seen in the photos might also help confirm this as the location of the sickroom. The sickroom is clearly very bright and sunny, suggesting that it is closer to the front of the palace. If it were located at #64, there would be far less light entering the space.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 02:05:43 PM by Ortino »

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 06:54:02 PM »
Wow that is awesome... Thanks much... I am planning on going to see Alexander Palace either this spring or in September. I am so thrilled to
be going. If anyone else wants to start a group to go please email me at:  sfetters@mailcity.com.  I hope to take a spoon with plastic zip lock
and take some of the earth back with me from the Palace grounds .... I might even spend a night or two in Tsarskoe Selo to drink in the view
around the Palace grounds .... Wondering about the childrens play house on the moat... there use to be bridge to go across...so no one
can go across now... too bad would have loved to have just peaked inside of the old house now.

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 07:24:15 PM »
Sarushka, what was your source for Nicholas II's diary for 1913? Thank you for your discovery as well!!!

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2009, 09:37:19 PM »
Sarushka, what was your source for Nicholas II's diary for 1913? Thank you for your discovery as well!!!

It was a post on an older thread by Joanna, here.
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Offline Joanna

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 11:54:58 AM »
Sarushka, on my copy of cd you have of Yakovlev's book, page 473 has a photograph of #60. If you have a moment can you upload it for others to see? The upper cornices do not correspond to the sickroom pics and the stove height appears lower than the wall surround in Yakovlev's. I will try to translate in next two weeks of #60 and #64. Also of #52 Corner Drawing Room to see if it was the playroom during Nicholas II's childhood. I have also read (must find note) that the sickroom was next to Orchie's.

Joanna

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2009, 12:31:35 PM »
I certainly can't argue with that -- the photo speaks for itself:



Oh, that tricky sickroom! ;o)
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Offline Joanna

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 05:51:07 PM »
To gather my thoughts and reasoning of why I believe the sickroom was #13-#14, I will write in point form to clarify and hope for discussion of others ideas:

•   In photographs c1917 of #13 Alexei’s Bedroom has the same curtains that are in the sickroom c1913

•   The chairs in Alexei’s bedroom correspond in style to the chairs in the sickroom

•   In the 1913 photos of the sickroom, the length of the room is narrow. It has the double door that is the same that leads to the playroom, Tatiana’s bed and a chair then meets corner of the long wall with door and stove. It configures exactly to the #13-14 in the Yakovlev plan with the outer corridor to the right wing.

•   #13 and #14 were renovated c1915-16 as Alexei’s suite

•   As the war had been going on for 2 years and Alexandra was known to care about expenditures, she would have been in agreement to utilize whatever they could, the curtain material, chairs, etc

•   Prior to 1915, we do not know the use of these rooms, only conjecture

•   Yakovlev’s books relate to the appearance/plan c1920s. He rarely gives historical data of a room prior to what he sees

•   In 1895-96 the second floor became the nursery. It was not until 1903 when the Concert Hall was destroyed and the Maple Room incorporated. The second floor at that time then had extra rooms added as the Concert Hall had until then extended the full two floor height.

•   By 1903 there were four young girls all under 8, the son had not yet been born. With the extension over the maple room, bedrooms were added allowing separate rooms for the girls. The playroom was in use.

•   In c1904-5 there is a photograph of the playroom with the girls sitting in front of the Christmas tree. You can see the chintz sofa platform that was later transferred to #7 Girl’s Reception Room.

•   Was the night nursery up to 1910 or so, #7 with the #6 Dining Room included. After the girls reached teens and Alexei required a suite of his own as Tsarevich after tens years or so, was there a switch of rooms – Alexei moved over to next to the playroom, etc and then by 1915, decisions were instituted to expand from #13 to #19. Up to that time, Gilliard was not living in the palace and would have had a suite in the Lyceum or Catherine Palace as Gibbes, Benckendorf, etc. Alexei immediate carers would have been his nurse Tegelev while still young with Derevenko as his sailor protector. By the time he passed 10 years, he would have progressed beyond nurse etc and it makes sense that Gilliard would be in the immediate area of his rooms.

•   We have the floor plans/descriptions c1917 and yet we have little clue to the use of the rooms through the years. Could Orbelani’s room have been #17 until the changes required for Alexei’s suite and she then moved to the right wing. Where was Orchie’s room? Most likely #23 or so near to Orbelani and the girls.

•   The nursery (possibly #6&7) for at least 15 years would have had to be close to Alexandra which is the stairs in #5 and the lift in the corridor.

•   There are tantalizing clues in the diaries – Nicholas states the sickroom is next to the playroom and Tatiana the same. We need to visualize how the rooms were allocated prior to the renovations of 1915.

Joanna

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2009, 06:05:42 PM »
Is the photo of reply #8 Benckendorf's drawing room? Why are there armors and spears in his drawing room?

Offline Joanna

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2009, 06:26:17 PM »
I

This is room #60 Benckendorf's Drawing Room. I have not translated it as yet but a number of items had been moved into the Alexander Palace from other places and incorporated into the various rooms as a museum. It could be that the armor display was not in the room prior to 1917.

Joanna

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2009, 08:07:51 PM »
Thank you for the clarification Joanna. Good Luck on your translation of the book. You and Sarushka should publish your own book.  :) You both have excellent sources. ;)

Offline Douglas

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2009, 10:35:39 PM »
I have been studying all of the posts of this thread for several days.  I don't mean to intrude, therefore I waited until today.  [My usual areas are the Imperial yachts.]. I thank Sarushka for getting us all thinking...!

I believe that Joanna is correct that the 'sickroom' was #13 & #14.  From the angle of the afternoon sun and the architecture of the room it fits the criteria.  It also fits the Tsar's statement that the sickroom was next to the 'large playroom'.

The light construction wall was removed after Alexie no longer required a sailor to sleep nearby.  It is possible that the 'wall' were the screens we see in the photos.  Those screens would have given the sailor nanny a degree of privacy.

Also there appear to be three  exterior windows due to the light entering the room in the photos. The double doors and heater fit the photos we see of  the sickroom.

Alexie was occupying another room at that time for other reasons that were pointed out by Joanna.

Such fun finding the famous sickroom...! Always an adventure looking into the past.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 11:02:35 PM by Douglas »

Offline Douglas

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Re: Locating the Sickroom
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2009, 11:15:00 PM »
The other possibility for the sickroom could have been a remodeled 29-30-31....as it has it's own toilet and three exterior windows.  But the room would have been somewhat dark in the afternoon.  The 3 windows would be on the north east  side of the palace...receiving direct sun only in the early mornings.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 11:21:25 PM by Douglas »