Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics

[Robert_Hall]

Would he really need to? I think the question is moot now anyway, except  for the arch-conservative ROC, of course. Even  their faithful do not pay nuch attention to the issue.

[Eric_Lowe]

Nobody needs to, but I think Prince Charles would probably do it since he is a fan of Ella.

[LisaDavidson]

Nobody needs to, but I think Prince Charles would probably do it since he is a fan of Ella.

Fan or not, the Prince of Wales' mtDNA onetheless comes from his mother's matrilineal line (Mother of Elizabeth Bowes Lyon - HM the Queen Mother - HM Queen Elizabeth II - HRH The Prince of Wales). Grand Duchess Elizabeth's and the Duke of Edinburgh's mtDNA (which would match each other's) would be different than the POW's, and therefore of no help in identifying the Grand Duchess' remains or her finger.

And there would be no need for anyone to provide a sample as this mtDNA has already been sequenced and the results widely published.

[LisaDavidson]

While doing some more general research, I came upon her Wikipedia biography that includes a list of shrines to St. Elizabeth. I thought this might be an interesting topic, in that these shrines can actually be visited by those of us able to travel to them.

Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchess_Elizabeth_Fyodorovna

The shrines listed:

1. West Door, Westminster Abbey, London - One of 10 20th century Christian martyrs.
2. Martha and Mary Convent, Moscow - St. Elizabeth's convent, founded in 1908, reestablished in the 1990s
3. Church of Mary Magdalene, Mount of Olives, Jerusalem - the Orthodox Church whose dedication she attended in 1886, and where is is currently entombed

I also found:

4. Chapel of St. Elizabeth, Alapaevsk - chapel built near the site of the mine into which she was thrown to her death
5. Church of St. Elizabeth the New Martyr, Cayce, South Carolina - a new Orthodox church started by converts to Orthodoxy

Has anyone been to any of these places?

Ilana Miller told me about her visit to the church in Jerusalem and Mary Ann Fogarty told me about going to Alapaevsk.

[Nick_Nicholson]

Lisa and Robert, hello!

Regarding the involvement of the Patriarch in the burial of the Imperial family, it isn't that the ROC isn't interested in or predjudiced against the IF, it was a religious issue.  The state pressed for an immediate burial after the identification,and the ROC was placed in a very difficult canonical position.  In ROCOR, the IF are full fledged Saints, but in ROC they are Holy Martys, which are different.  ROC and ROCOR have merged in a "separate but equal" kind of way, and these are details they are trying to fix.  The liturgy for the dead for a member of the imperial family is very different than what would occur for the interrment of a Martyr or Saint.  The patriarch removed himself purely so that he would not be involved in doing the wrong service over the remains/relics.  When the final canonisation process is completed, I am certain that he will be involved, and I would not be surprised if the family were moved from the cathedral

[holynewmartyr]

I would also add the Synodal Cathedral of Our Lady of the Sign in New York City, which is the headquarters of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR).
There you will find the relic of Saint Elizabeth's right arm (as well a relic of her attendant Saint Barbara) in a gold reliquary.



I was in NYC this past April and had the opportunity to venerate the relic.  It is located on the left side of the cathedral (facing the iconostasis).  It is on a pedastal under an icon of Saint Elizabeth.

[Eric_Lowe]

Thanks ! Who got the left arm ?

[Robert_Hall]

Nick- so nice to see you again!
 I am aware of the Patriarch's position, and I certainly do not envy him.  But just where, if ever, would the Imperial remains be removed to?  My personal thoughts on the matter are that they stay  at the Sts P&P , reunited with the newly discovered, forever [whatever that means] to rest in peace.
 The distinction of "Holy Martyrs" and "Saints" is lost on many people.  They died in a "Christlike manner", but have yet to be credited with any miracles or extremely holy deeds,  In the Roman church, these things are clearly defined and pretty much loose to interpretation, in the Orthodox world,   there are clouds of incense and candles surrounding the mysteries...

[Eric_Lowe]

Too loose in the Catholic Church. They are now in the process of making the war Pope (one book named him "Hitler's Pope") a saint...

[Robert_Hall]

Eric, you are referring to Pius XII and you are wrong. The cause for his canonisation is far and away from  completion.  There are arguments- MANY for and against him.  He has not even reached the "Blessed" stage yet!
 The Romanovs are not even on the calendar.

[Eric_Lowe]

No I am not wrong. Acording to a recent statement from the Vatican, the beautification is already under way. That is why I found so shocking. They are just going to push it through...I agree there are many for and against his case. That is why I left that church...

[holynewmartyr]

Thanks ! Who got the left arm ?

As far as I know, the left arm is still with the rest of Saint Elizabeth at Saint Mary Magdalen Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem. 

[Eric_Lowe]

Good...I found it strange to find the body cut off to the faithful. It is different with bones.

[Nick_Nicholson]

Lisa,

Interesting that you say the body might be moved with the approval of her "collateral descendants"

I wonder who they would be?   Dimitri Pavlovitch and Mariya Pavlovna were her official heirs, as they were adopted after GD Paul's mesalliance, and Clearly Dimitri inherited the Belosselsky Palace and Ilyinskoe.  I guess the Ilyinskys would be the direct heirs, and responsible for the permission, however, they are not Orthodox, so perhaps the Chuurch would avoid them?  If someone is cononised, moreover, are their remains still subject to regular law?  I guess they are, but what an unusual situation!

N

[Nick_Nicholson]

Lisa,

I would think you would have to add the ROCOR Cathedral of our Lady of the Sign in New York City, as they have her hand.

Best,


Nick