Author Topic: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics  (Read 184342 times)

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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #120 on: May 05, 2005, 04:41:06 PM »
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"Yes it is. It was obviously done before her remains went to Russia recently."

But I think it was only her hand which has gone on a journey to Russia.  
 


Yes, you're right. I didn't write that very clearly. I just meant that I didn't know if her coffin had been disturbed at all or if it was still viewable.
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AlexP

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #121 on: August 11, 2005, 04:54:58 AM »
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As far as I know Ella was burried in the russian chapel in Jerusalem in the early 1920's.

But recently I heard that her body was transferred to the Peter Paul-Fortress in St. Petersburg. Is that true?

Has anybody visited the Jerusalem chapel?



The relics of St. Elizabeth the Great Martyr are indeed in Jerusalem in a church under the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

However, as a result of a recent agreement between the Patriarch of the Russian Church and the Metropolitan of the Russian Church Abroad, a new disposition will made of the relics of St. Ellizabeth:

1.  The major portion of the relics will remain in Jerusalem;
2.  A certain portion of the relics will be returned to Russia and will be placed in the Mary-and-Martha Convent, which is still undergoing extensive restoration;
3.  An additional portion of the relics will forwarded to the Cathedral of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad in New York.

There is considerable concern in Church quarters that the volatile state of affairs in Israel/Palestine could cause the relics to be lost totally, as was the case with the others new Saints glorified with the Grand Duchess, which were transferred to Beijing, buried on the grounds of the Russian Embassy, and then all maps indicating the burial spot were lost.  Recent attempts to locate the remains of the New Martyrs were not successful because the spot in which they were believed to lie -- in a crypt beneath a now-razed Russian church on the grounds of the empy -- proved not to contain them.

Dominic_Albanese

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #122 on: August 11, 2005, 07:34:40 AM »
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There is considerable concern in Church quarters that the volatile state of affairs in Israel/Palestine could cause the relics to be lost totally, as was the case with the others new Saints glorified with the Grand Duchess, which were transferred to Beijing, buried on the grounds of the Russian Embassy, and then all maps indicating the burial spot were lost.  Recent attempts to locate the remains of the New Martyrs were not successful because the spot in which they were believed to lie -- in a crypt beneath a now-razed Russian church on the grounds of the empy -- proved not to contain them.


Alex - again you provide us with new information - I hadn't heard that there had been a formal investigation into the crypt in China - Please tell us more.  Also, what is next in terms of trying to find the missing remains.

thanks!

dca

AlexP

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #123 on: August 11, 2005, 10:39:59 AM »
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Alex - again you provide us with new information - I hadn't heard that there had been a formal investigation into the crypt in China - Please tell us more.  Also, what is next in terms of trying to find the missing remains.

thanks!

dca



Carissimo Domenico,

Mille grazie.

As you are undoubtedly aware, during the Revolution and subsequent take-over of Tobolsk by the Godless-armies, the earthly remains of the Grand Duchess and of the Grand Dukes were transferred to the relatively safety of the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission of the Russian Orthodox Church in Beijing, in the northwest part of the city.  The Mission possesed an IMMENSE portion of land which had been deeded to it by the last Ching Dynasty, because what many do NOT know is that the Chinese Imperial Guards, that is the Personal Guard of the Emperor, were actually Albanizian cossacks from the Amur Region of Russia who had been brought to China many, many years ago.  It was through these Imperial Guards that the Orthodox faith was introduced into China.  They remained in the service of the last Emperor, Pu Yi, right up until 1945 (even after he became the puppet head of Manchukuo).

In any cases, on the grounds of the Spiritual  Mission were located at least six beautiful churches -- one should remember that this area was much greater than ain the 1,000 of hectares and it spread for kilometers and kilometers.  It was huge.  In any case, the Grand Duchess's remains were held for a period in the 1920s but then in keeping with family wishes, they were transferred to the Holy Land (to Occupied Palestine) where they were reburied.  The remains of the others, the servants, the Grand Dukes, etc., were buried in hallowed ground, as the surviving records indicate, on the grounds of the Mission.  It WAS believed that they were buried under the foundation of the Church of the All Holy Martyrs.   This was a particularly beautiful church built in 1903-1906 in the Nizhninogorod Style, meaning that in the 1920s the floor of the church was dug up and they were buried under the floor and the floor was rebuilt.

Anyway, in 1956, the property of the Russian Spiritual Mission, in connivance with the Russian Church in Moscow,which at that time was completely subordinate to the wishes of the Government, was handed over to the Kruschev Government to become the new site of the Soviet Embassy.  Nearly all of the churches were immediately BULLDOZED to the ground, by Soviet bulldozers, not Chinese ones, in the middle of the night, of course, Soviet-style and all of the records were burned.  One church remained standing, however, and it was given over to be the garage of the Embassy.

However, times change, thank God, and in 2003, two things happened.  President Putin ordered the return of the remaining Church to the Russian Church, which has happened, and Metropolitan Kyrill of St. Petersburg began VERY, VERY, VERY careful and delicate negotiations with both the Embassy and the Government of the People's Republic to determine the location of the remains, to disinter them if found, and then to return them to Russia.  One needs to understand that in China one does not disinter the ancestors, be they of whatever faith they were, all of this flies in the face of embedded Confucian thought, and very much so.  In any case, it was suggested that the remains were at the bottom of this church, again, like so much that goes on this VERY board, because it was reported by someone that it was reported by someone that it was reported by someone, etc., etc.   No one ever bothered to try to locate a genuine primary source.  The Chinese stood back and just looked.  Permission was sought and "questionably" granted to locate and disinter the remaining New Martyrs.   The foundation remains of the pillaged-and-destroyed church were located and excavation began but, alas, there was nothing there, after a great deal of digging.

Nonetheless, new conclusive and primary records from the Chinese side were very, very graciously made available indicating where the New Martyrs are most likely buried, but it is NOT on Embassy territory any more, the Embassy having deeded that part of the land back to the Government of the People's Republic 60 years ago. There is a virtually certainty that the remains lie where these primary sources purport them to lie, but speaking from a Chinese perspective, the Government will have NONE of it of digging up bodies on Government land.  It is just not done in China and when they had to move the Russian cemetery in Harbin twenty-five years ago, my God, the ruckus that ensued was terrible.  It was a lesson learned by all and it just will not happen again.

Since this is property of the Republic, the Russian Government can do nothing here at all.  Nor should it.  And even if it tried, it surely would not help relations between the two countries.  Metropolian Kyrill has run into a roadblock, bigtime.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AlexP »

Dominic_Albanese

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #124 on: August 11, 2005, 03:25:39 PM »
Thank you Alex!  Again you amaze me!  Thank you for sharing your information.!.

I'm going to hate to go back to my regular routine next week which unfortunately, gives me little time to do my Romanov work!

best regards,

dca

Offline lori_c

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #125 on: October 19, 2006, 04:08:02 PM »
I wish I knew. There's supposedly a finger of hers in a Russian church in the US that was involved in the controversial DNA testing the past year or so (which purportedly didn't match Alexandra, etc...). I guess if that IS her finger, they could take part of her to Russia. I think the whole thing is kind of icky. I enjoy visiting shrines as much as the next good Catholic, but even then the less intact remains (ie Anthony of Padua) struck me so. I mean to be parcelled out all over, just seems like a desecration. I prefer to visit the INTACT shrine (like St Bernadette).

I'm with you.  It does seem a bit macabre to remove Ella's hand.  In Hugo Mager's book Grand Duchess Elizabeth, her body was in a state of preservation even after it arrived in Jerusalem and the nuns there washed and changed the clothes.  It is reported that a smell of jasmine came out of the sealed coffin when the performed this.

Bernadette looks as though she is sleeping and is beautiful.  I wonder if they covered Ella's face with the white handkerchief because of the bruises, etc.

Not to sound macabre, but if she is in such an excellent state, why would they even begin to remove her hand?  I am not Russian Orthodox, I'm Catholic so I may just not understand sainthood in that religion.  I wish Ella was in as good of condition as Bernadette that we might see and venerate her as a saint.  of any Christian religion.

RogerV

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #126 on: December 21, 2006, 06:08:02 PM »
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 There is a virtually certainty that the remains lie where these primary sources purport them to lie, but speaking from a Chinese perspective, the Government will have NONE of it of digging up bodies on Government land.  It is just not done in China and when they had to move the Russian cemetery in Harbin twenty-five years ago, my God, the ruckus that ensued was terrible.  It was a lesson learned by all and it just will not happen again.

This is extremely interesting to read.  However, I must confess myself cofused in view of the fact that there are or were Chinese cemeteries all over the Western United States, some of which contain few or no bodies now because they were all shipped back to China.  Here in Portland the Chinese section of the largest pioneer cemetery is notable because it contains only a single white marker in a sea of otherwise unterrupted grass.  It's only after you look carefully at the marker that you realize it's the grave of a Chinese Christian.

Now I wonder-- what would be the attitude of the Chinese government towards the idea of locating the graves and installing markers without removing the bodies?

hikaru

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #127 on: March 27, 2007, 01:43:48 PM »
According to her last will (which was found out recently in Russia), she desired to be burried in the Marfo-Mariinsky Convent.
So, it would be appropriate to transfer  all her body to Moscow , like it was done with Marie Feodorovna.

scarlett_riviera

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #128 on: March 31, 2007, 08:53:15 AM »
Wow, I didn't know she left a last will. Do you know where I can read more about this, Hikaru? :D
I wonder if they'll transfer her body back to Moscow...any more news on this?

relay101

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #129 on: June 26, 2007, 12:42:30 PM »
Forgive me if this link was already posted by here is a photo of her burial site in Jerusalem.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=7035855

Offline rgt9w

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #130 on: March 06, 2008, 05:27:08 PM »

matushka

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #131 on: March 21, 2008, 08:36:18 AM »
"Paramanny krest, chetki, ? i natelnye ikonki i krest naydeny na moshchash sviatoy prepodobnomuchenitsy Velikoy Kniaginy Elisavety pri vskritii ee groba"

Something like: "mother superior's cross, "rosary", baptism's icons and cross found on the relics of saint holy martyr grand duchess Elisabeth when her coffin was opened". I could not read one word.

Offline rgt9w

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #132 on: March 21, 2008, 05:48:44 PM »
Thank you for the translation Matushka! I appreciate it.

Offline Alexandre64

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #133 on: April 13, 2008, 01:31:59 PM »

Offline rgt9w

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #134 on: April 22, 2008, 08:48:25 PM »
Here is a link to an article from the New York Times in February 1921 relating to the burial of Grand Duchess Elizabeth. It is interesting to see what the press was reporting at the time, especially the reference to the fact Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna's remains had been located and were being transferred to the "Holy Land" as well.

Once you open the link, click on the view article tab to see the article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9404EFDE123CE533A25750C0A9649C946095D6CF