Author Topic: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics  (Read 187367 times)

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Robert_Hall

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #150 on: October 07, 2008, 12:31:27 PM »
I do not think the State will even bother to consider getting involved.  And, with a 20% drop in the Russian stock market,  I am sure many other funding projects will take precedence

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #151 on: October 07, 2008, 02:34:23 PM »
Maybe the Church may fund it...

Robert_Hall

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #152 on: October 07, 2008, 03:19:50 PM »
That is  the issue Eric. WHICH Church?  the ROCOR has possesion of the remains.  The ROC  has come to a very fragile agreement to reunite the 2 branches and has agreed to respect  the other's property claims. Most likely scanario, according to past experience, is that the ROCOR will  simply chop off another body part and send it to the convent in Moscow. It is anybody's guess who has jurisdiction over that place.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #153 on: October 07, 2008, 04:47:54 PM »
It seems that Ella's remains would suffer the fate of other saints. A piece of them would be everywhere as holy relics...

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #154 on: October 12, 2008, 10:13:17 AM »
My impressions of the ROC (in all its incarnations) are those of an outsider, but thus far it appears to me this is a very politicized church. Since they did not bother to have the Patriarch bury the Emperor, I have the impression that the Imperial Family is not held in high esteem. Even though reckoned as a saint, I am therefore not expecting them to do anything for the grand duchess. It's very sad, really.

Robert_Hall

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #155 on: October 12, 2008, 10:37:37 AM »
Lisa,  I am sure you are correct. The ROC does not want to step on any toes with the ROCOR especially. Just why it remains so skepticle of the  Imperial  recovery is a rmystery to me.  There is even some controversy over a relic of Ella, a finger, that was making the rounds a while back. It seems, it COULD be actually the finger of her companion, Varvara, but no testes are allowed.
 At the same time, GD Maria is  very close to the ROC patriacrh and even stays at the Novodechny [sic] convent when  in MOscow, usuall attending Church charity events.  Even she takes no position ofn any of the relics, keeping in line  with the Patriarch.
 At the end of the day, what does it really matter?  Carting a bunch of bone slivers around the globe for the faithful to slobber over? A bit  pagan to me. Leave her buried and at peace with her god.

Rodney_G.

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #156 on: October 12, 2008, 06:42:23 PM »
rgt9w,

That NY Times story from 1921 is a great find! However a report like the bodies of Olga Nikolaevna and her maid arriving in Egypt, however spectacularly wrong and absurd, was not at all unusual for the Times in the postRussian Revolution years. Romanovs we know to have been murdered were claimed to have been seen with as much certainty as the results of the previous day's Yankees baseball game.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #157 on: October 13, 2008, 11:10:23 AM »
I think the ones that survive were mostly Marie and Anastasia. I don't think Olga or Tatiana would leave their parents or Alexei.

Rodney_G.

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #158 on: October 13, 2008, 02:44:08 PM »
 I'm not so sure about that, Eric.

My main  point  though was the stupidity and irresponsibility of the NY Times story. That ship arriving in Port Said in Jan., 1921 quite simply wasn't carrying the bodies of Olga and her maid. They weren't on it. Nobody saw them because they were in the ground in Koptyiaki Forest at that time. We know that now and people at that time didn't know one way or other for sure about the Romanov daughters' fate. Certainly not a NY Times correspondent or stringer standing by a dock in Port Said in 1921.The Bolsheviks even as late as 1921 hadn't admitted the truth.And why disinter and send to "the Holy Land" only Olga's body?
It's not only with 2010 hindsight that we can see this 'report" as madeup nonsense.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #159 on: October 13, 2008, 05:45:59 PM »
You are right about that report was nonsense.

Offline holynewmartyr

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #160 on: October 14, 2008, 05:10:51 PM »
Lisa,  I am sure you are correct. The ROC does not want to step on any toes with the ROCOR especially. Just why it remains so skepticle of the  Imperial  recovery is a rmystery to me.  There is even some controversy over a relic of Ella, a finger, that was making the rounds a while back. It seems, it COULD be actually the finger of her companion, Varvara, but no testes are allowed.
 At the same time, GD Maria is  very close to the ROC patriacrh and even stays at the Novodechny [sic] convent when  in MOscow, usuall attending Church charity events.  Even she takes no position ofn any of the relics, keeping in line  with the Patriarch.
 At the end of the day, what does it really matter?  Carting a bunch of bone slivers around the globe for the faithful to slobber over? A bit  pagan to me. Leave her buried and at peace with her god.

Yes, it certainly would be an embarrassing blunder if the finger turned out to belong to Saint Barbara and not to Saint Elizabeth; however, I am inclined to believe that the finger does belong to Saint Elixzabeth for the following reasons:

1) Saint Elizabeth's body was still identifiable at the time of her internment at Saint Mary Magadalene Russian Orthodox Church. Her sister, Victoria, writes of recognizing her sister when she first saw Saint Elizabeth's body.
2) Saint Barbara was a smaller woman in height in comparsion to Saint Elizabeth. I doubt that the bodies were misidentified.
3) When the coffins were exhumed and opened in preparation for the canonization, Saint Elizabeth's body was reported to be partially incorrupt. All reports that I have read mention the removal of her right hand for relics. This relic is kept at the ROCOR cathedral in New York City. I have not read any mention of fingers removed from Saint Barbara's body for relics.

There is controversy regarding how the sample taken from the finger was tested. One report states that the finger is contaminated with DNA from two other sources, making the finger an unreliable source for testing. It may well be Ella's finger nonetheless.

If the finger does belong to Saint Barbara, then I would guess that a finger was removed from her body at the time of the exhumation and at some point accidently switcheded with the finger belonging to Saint Elizabeth. I doubt however that that would have happened. If it did, that certainly is very embarrassing.

Holy New Martyr Elizabeth, pray for us!

Dominic_Albanese

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #161 on: October 14, 2008, 05:28:48 PM »
I'm interested in reading more about the discovery of her body and eventual burial.  Unfortunatley, I can only read english - are any of the sources that you are referring to here in english?  If so, could you give us the details so I might find them myself?

Many thanks
dca

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #162 on: October 15, 2008, 10:52:50 AM »
Yes that would help...

Also St. Barbara is also a saint ! Her relic is as good as St. Elizabeth's. The problem should only be identification and not of faith.

Robert_Hall

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #163 on: October 15, 2008, 11:24:55 AM »
Yes, St Barbara is just as venerable as St Elizabeth, Eric.
 I have no  idea  wheteher the accusation about the finger is true or not. It came up a few years back when a certain carckpot  was trying to "prove" that the remains [first set] found in Ekaterinburg were  not the IF. I do not even remember his name, nor if his posts remain, but was a rather heated discussion, as I do recall.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #164 on: October 15, 2008, 04:13:21 PM »
Well...DNA is a good tool and Prince Philip can do it again...