Author Topic: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics  (Read 183278 times)

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Rodney_G.

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #210 on: March 06, 2013, 05:47:18 PM »
Good point,edubs. I get the sense that the Russian Orthodox mission in the Holy Land prior to that,though well-motivated, was a haphazard affair, not overly well-organized,and underfunded.

After 1906, pilgrimages there became more feasible and appealing. We know that Rasputin at  some point  (year?) made such a trek, for example., though obviously this was  well before Ella's enshrinement.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #211 on: March 06, 2013, 07:34:25 PM »
Indeed. I think his was well documented by the Russians.

Offline NickNicholsonNYC

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #212 on: June 18, 2013, 08:47:05 PM »
A theological question, may be out of ignorance.... I believed England's church didn't approved "statues" of saints and the Orthodox church only accepted icons -so how come they have that statue in Westminster's abbey? Or was it just placed there the same way they could have placed Mother Theresa or Mahatma Gandhi -i. e., not as religious character but for what she did for people?

The statue of Elizabeth at Westmister Abbey is in the new overdoor carvings of the West Door.  The jambs have been carved to represent 20th Century Saints and Martyrs, and include not only Grand Duchess Elizabeth, but, amongst others, Dr. Martin Luther King!.  Elizabeth is not (yet) recognized as a saint by the Church of England, but she is definitely celebrated at the Abbey, and is remembered there every July 18th. 

From the Abbey:

"Dear Mr. Nicholson,

To answer your question about the Grand Duchess Elizabeth of Russia, she is certainly much loved here at Westminster Abbey. As one of the modern martyrs above the Great West Door, we also have a liturgical commemoration of her life and witness to Christ on 18th July, when she is also remembered by other Anglicans. For more information:
 
http://www.westminster-abbey.org/our-history/people/grand-duchess-elizabeth
 
With all best wishes,
 
Jamie Hawkey
 
The Revd Dr James Hawkey
Minor Canon and Sacrist, Westminster Abbey"

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #213 on: June 19, 2013, 11:17:31 AM »
The Anglican/Episcopal (US) Church is very active in reaching across the isle to the older churches (Orthodox & Catholic). We have to remember that an heir to the throne will not lost his place for the British throne is he/she marries an Orthodox Christian (only Roman Catholic). So that is why Alfie did not lose his place when he married Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna of Russia. Indeed Queen Victoria would have been proud to see her granddaughter's statue in Westminster Abbey.

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #214 on: August 14, 2013, 03:41:11 PM »
инок Николай

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #215 on: August 14, 2013, 03:53:04 PM »
Thanks for posting.

Rodney_G.

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #216 on: August 15, 2013, 06:30:36 PM »
Paul Gilbert reports:


The Convent of St. Mary Magdelene, Jerusalem
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/blog/index.blog/1448942/the-convent-of-st-mary-magdelene-jerusalem/


Thanks for showing that, Inok Nikolai. The Church is indeed inspiring; I tend to picture Orthodox churches in terms of a northern(Russian) winter climate, but the setting in a hot,sunny Jerusalem with palm trees is nice as well.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #217 on: August 16, 2013, 02:54:36 PM »
A place that really merits a visit. My friend told me once Ariffat considered knocking this church down to built a car park.

Offline NickNicholsonNYC

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #218 on: September 13, 2013, 11:55:00 AM »
This is from wikipedia, but a good condensation of what actually happened in '97.  No car parks. 

In 1997 Patriarch of Moscow Alexei II attempted to visit a ROCOR held monastery (the convent of Mary Magdalen) in Hebron with Yasser Arafat. It has been noted that "The Moscow-based church has enjoyed a close relationship with Arafat since his guerilla fighter days."[6] Upon arrival Arafat and the patriarch were refused entry by the ROCOR clergy, who held that Alexy had no legitimate authority. Two weeks afterwards police officers of the Palestinian Authority arrived and by "assaulting and cursing priests and nuns" they managed to evict the ROCOR clergy and then turned over the property to the ROC.[5]ROCOR Mother Superior Juliana said "We were told you have to leave because this man has to come here. This man was from the red church [i.e. the ROC]."[7] Another nun stated "They put me on the floor and they dragged me like a sack of potatoes."[7]
Alexy made another visit in early January 2000 to meet with Arafat and asked "for help in recovering church properties"[7] as part of a "worldwide campaign to recover properties lost to churches that split off during the Communist era".[8] Later that month the Palestinian Authority again moved to evict ROCOR clergy, this time from the 2.91-acre (11,800 m2) Jericho Gardens with a Chapel.[5][7] Five ROCOR monks and two nuns were forcibly removed from the property and ROC clergy took their places.[5][7][8] The monks and nuns who were evicted said that they had been "badly manhandled."[7]A monk claimed he was "knocked to the ground, handcuffed and beaten."[7] The ROCOR clergy stated that "the police refused to produce any documentation" and all seven of the ROCOR evictees required hospitalization.[8] The claims that the PA police used force were disputed by Palestinian Security Chief Jibril Rajoub "This is not true. It did not happen. It will never happen in the future. ...As the responsible authority in Hebron and all parts of the West Bank, we have the right to do our best to help them [the ROC]."[7]
The eviction of the ROCOR clergy at the Jericho Gardens (with a Chapel) gained international attention because two ROCOR nuns who were American citizens managed to sneak into the confiscated monastery and barricade themselves inside a portion of the complex. Further media attention became focused on the event when it was discovered that one of the nuns was Maria Stephanopoulos the sibling of George Stephanopoulos the former advisor to U.S. President Bill Clinton.
Maria and her fellow nun Xenia Cesena communicated with reporters their motivation "No matter what happens to the property, we made it clear to the world what the Moscow church is doing to us."[5] The supervisor of the ROCOR mission Archbishop Mark declared that they had "been talking with the Palestinian administration but so far no solution has been found, unfortunately."[5] He said that the International Red Cross had been denied access to the nuns and any request for ROCOR clergy to visit the women had been rebuffed. He declared "The PA interfered in church affairs without a legal right. It's a state interference into church affairs [and] a violation of human rights."[5] The compound was "bustling with staff from the Russian Consulate" and it was reported that they were giving food to the nuns. During the incident the five evicted monks maintained a vigil outside the monastery sleeping in their car.[5]
As the nuns were American citizens the U.S. Consulate in East Jerusalem became involved to ensure their safety. When Arafat visited the US while the incident was ongoing the subject was raised by Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.[5] Ibrahim Kandalaft, in charge of Christian Affairs in the PA Ministry of Religious Affairs, told reporters "There is nothing so important here. This monastery belonged to the church of Moscow before 1917. It is returned to them."[5] The office of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu denounced the PA raid, saying it "violated the Israeli-Palestinian peace agreements under which both sides are to respect holy sites."
After confining herself to a section of the monastery without running water for over 60 days Sister Maria Stephanopoulos (who began limiting herself to a bread and water diet as a form of hunger strike) appealed to Pope John Paul II (who was making a historic visit in the area) to use his influence on Arafat to resolve the conflict, she said "I would hope this issue's going to resonate with him. He was in Poland and he really had a lot to do with the downfall of communism there, so he should certainly understand."[6] Roman Catholic Bishop and the Vatican's ambassador to Jerusalem Kamal Bathish stated bluntly that the pope would not meet with Sister Maria or intervene on her behalf.[6]
Sister Maria complained of "brusque treatment at the hands of the Palestinian Authority guards" and being "harassed by the Moscow Patriarchate monks who occupy the other half of the compound."[6] In an address to reporters her sibling, George Stephanopoulos, stated that he planned to meet with her in Hebron, and said "My greatest concern, as her brother, is that Sr. Maria remains safe and healthy, and I admire her determination."[6] An agreement brokered by U.S. Rep. Carolyn Maloney, Rep. Tom Lantos and Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan with the PA, the U.S. consulate and the Moscow Patriarchate was made to allow Sister Maria and Sister Xenia Cesena greater access to the entire property, especially the monastery's chapel. Despite this, Sister Maria stated that the ROC monks were still preventing her from worshiping in the chapel, "Anytime we get close they close the door in our face. There's no such thing as equal access."[6] She told reporters she had no intention of relenting, saying "I believe in the new martyrs, what they stood for. The freedom of the church in the end is what it's about."[6]

Today, both the ROC and ROCOR have a continued, and separate existence in the Holy Land, but the signing of the Act of Canonical Communion has brought about a new era of cooperation between the two parts of the Russian Church.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #219 on: September 13, 2013, 08:18:17 PM »
Thanks for the info. Very disturbing one at that.

Rodney_G.

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #220 on: September 14, 2013, 03:15:39 PM »
I wish the information in Nick's  post 218 had been more widely disseminated and known, including by me. Eric's  "Very disturbing one at that" is an understatement.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #221 on: September 14, 2013, 05:45:47 PM »
Indeed...I agree with you. :-(

Offline holynewmartyr

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #222 on: October 26, 2015, 08:47:16 PM »
This message and photos are from Penny Wilson, who asked me to post them...

Someone asked if there was a photo of Barbara Yakovleva's recovered body.  I have a full set of these photos, but the only ones that never seem to get "air time" anywhere are the ones of Barbara and Feodor Remez.  So here they are... even though they aren't of terribly good quality.  I think at least they complete the "set," and Barbara's DOES show in contrast to Ella's:



Is it possible to repost the photo of Barbara's recovered body? I have never seen it before and would like to see how it compares to the one of Ella's.
Holy New Martyr Elizabeth, pray for us!

Offline rgt9w

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #223 on: July 09, 2016, 12:23:19 PM »
I have a question regarding the remains of Grand Duchess Elizabeth.  I ask it with utmost respect and mean no disrespect to any Orthodox believers or to the grand duchess' eligibility to be named a saint.  I have read multiple times that when the grand duchess' remains were found, the body was described as "incorruptible".  I interpret this as no decomposition had occurred, but in the photographs of the victims after they were removed from the mine, Ella's face is darkened as if some decomposition had occurred or it was severely bruised?  Is there are broader definition of "incorruptible" used by the Orthodox church or does incorruptible mean the remains were not skeletonized??

Rodney_G.

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Re: Ella's grave in Jerusalem & her relics
« Reply #224 on: July 09, 2016, 04:56:23 PM »
I have a question regarding the remains of Grand Duchess Elizabeth.  I ask it with utmost respect and mean no disrespect to any Orthodox believers or to the grand duchess' eligibility to be named a saint.  I have read multiple times that when the grand duchess' remains were found, the body was described as "incorruptible".  I interpret this as no decomposition had occurred, but in the photographs of the victims after they were removed from the mine, Ella's face is darkened as if some decomposition had occurred or it was severely bruised?  Is there are broader definition of "incorruptible" used by the Orthodox church or does incorruptible mean the remains were not skeletonized??
mom

Assuming we're talking about the same photos (and I think we are), consider this.
First, the quality of the photos is not good, both technically and from the best angle and distance.They're simply not very clear.
I understood Ella's face to have  been marred by dirt, debris, or water and /or damaged by trauma.Bruised if you will.
Neither am I any authority on the Orthodox Church's definition of incorruptibility, but I'm fairly sure bodily harm from human_ caused or accidental trauma or injury doesn't count as corruption.
I would think decomposition equates to bodily corruption  but the photos, to my imperfect vision, don't show that clearly enough.