Author Topic: Royal Retinue Heroes  (Read 9697 times)

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Offline blessOTMA

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Royal Retinue Heroes
« on: January 16, 2010, 09:55:47 PM »


The first photo shows the loyal retinue at Alexander Palace. But my question is , was the  2nd photo taken in Tobolsk? It appeared in a 1920 French magazine illustrating an article by Gilliard. It seems to be taken in a professional studio before a painted back drop. Does it depict Tobolsk? I have to say however that church looks like the one in  Ekaterinburg. Whatever the case, we know it's  a photograph of an elite group of special people ...their amazing contributions and sacrifice should not be forgotten. 

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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2010, 05:45:00 AM »
Could the second picture have been taken, say, in Tobolsk, and the painted backdrop added later for the purposes of the magazine?

Ann

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2010, 06:31:18 AM »
Yes, the second one was taken in Tobolsk.
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Offline nena

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2010, 03:10:08 PM »
Am agreed completely. You can tell by this almost same background in Tobolsk:

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Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2010, 05:58:17 PM »
nena, thank you for posting that picture of Tobolsk. It looks  amazingly similar. It seems to me they went to a professional studio in Tobolsk for a group  portrait. That bench and painted back drop says, (again in my opinion,) provincial early 20th century photography studio. I had  wondered if it was taken in Tobolsk because this is the Tobolsk retinue . I believe they were able to go where they wanted in town, at least at the beginning. Perhaps this was taken to send to friends. It displays a moving feeling of unity with each other and the family, imo. 
 


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Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2010, 10:49:03 PM »
In the interest of not forgetting those retinue heroes who  followed the family into captivity and death ...let me not forget Klementy Grigorivitch Nagorny. Certainly Gilliard did not. Here is the photo of Nagorny published in the Gilliard's 1920 article along with the group photo from Tobolsk 
....in searching for Nagorny's full name, I ran into a post by AP member, Lemur, where they recounted what Gilliard wrote about seeing Nagorny being taken away. It's a moving account .

One day when I was passing Ipatiev's house, accompanied by Dr. Derevenko and Mr. Gibbes, we saw two carriages drawn up and surrounded by a large number of Red Guards, What was our horror at recognizing in the first Sedniev (the valet-de-chambre of the Grand-Duchesses) sitting between two guards. Nagorny was going to the second carriage. He was just setting foot on the step with his hand on the side of the carriage when, raising his head, he saw us all there standing motionless a few yards from him. For a few seconds he looked fixedly at us, then, without a single gesture that might have betrayed us, he took his seat. The carriages were driven off, and we saw them turn in the direction of the prison.

These two good fellows were shot shortly afterwards; their sole crime had been their inability to hide their indignation on seeing the Bolshevik commissaries seize the little gold chain from which the holy images hung over the sick bed of Aleksey Nicolaievich.




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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2010, 03:26:22 AM »
What was Klementi Nagorny's naval rank - Petty Officer, Leading Seaman perhaps? I'd rather not refer to him as just 'Nagorny'.

Ann

Offline Nicolá De Valerón

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2010, 08:21:12 AM »
Ann,

Of course he was not a Petty Officer;) He was a Seaman, but at the same time he was an assistant to the ship Bosun/Bootsmann (unter-Officer and head of all the ship seamen). So, you can call him with a few different, but close to each other variants (I do not know exactly): Seaman or Senior/Leading Seaman. But I've forgot the main thing, he was serving in the Guard (Standart was a prestigious Guard's ship) and you should call him Seaman/Senior Seaman of the Naval Guard.

Nicola.

P.S. Differences between Seaman and Senior Seaman are very small, so you can call him with both these ranks and of course add the word "Guard".
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2010, 09:52:55 AM »
Perhaps in British parlance it was Able Seaman Nagorny.

Ann

Offline guinevere

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2010, 10:09:02 AM »
To me, the Man in the Photo is not Nagorny, but instead Alexeis other " Saylornanny" Derevenko !!!!

There are not many Photos of Nagorny, but many with Derevenko, so you can compare.

Nagorny was, as far as I know, taller and slimmer...

many Greetings

guinevere

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2010, 12:17:51 PM »
To me, the Man in the Photo is not Nagorny, but instead Alexeis other " Saylornanny" Derevenko !!!!

There are not many Photos of Nagorny, but many with Derevenko, so you can compare.

Nagorny was, as far as I know, taller and slimmer...

many Greetings

guinevere

Interesting guinevere !  I'll have to look into this. You could be right. They are often confused. Yet this photo was in an article Gilliard wrote and he seemed quite involved in providing  the illustrations. Certainly Derevenko would not be inculded in a thread of Royal Retinue Heroes !

I got a copy of The Private world of the Last Tsar today and thanks to you, Nicola, I know the cover photo is printed backwards! Nicholas's  medal is on the wrong side! Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

"Give my love to all who remember me."

  Olga Nikolaevna

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2010, 09:48:29 PM »
To me, the Man in the Photo is not Nagorny, but instead Alexeis other " Saylornanny" Derevenko !!!!
guinevere just a quick look around the web proves you to be right! That photo was of Derevenko. I imagne Gilliard wasn't to pleased to see the mix up in his article!

Picture published in 1920 as Nagorny


picture of Derevenko , clearly the same person



Here's Klementy Nagorny


Thank you guinevere for pointing out the mistake.

"Give my love to all who remember me."

  Olga Nikolaevna

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2010, 07:12:29 AM »
Certainly Derevenko would not be inculded in a thread of Royal Retinue Heroes !

There's evidence in Charlotte Zeepvat's Romanov Autumn that suggests Vyrubova's story about Derevenko mistreating Aleksei after the revolution was no better than libel:

According to Charlotte Zeepvat in Romanov Autumn, Vyrubova is the only source for the story of Derevenko's betrayal. Here's an excerpt from pages 239-40:

"Anna Virubova claimed to have seen Derevenko bullying Alexei, shouting orders at a boy too bemused to fight back. If this was true it would have been a shattering experience, but its truth is not so clear cut as it may seem. According to Anna, it happened on 20 March, two days before her own arrest. After a display like this the sailor would surely have left or been made to go, but he was still at the palace months later. Shortly before the move to Tobolsk in August he submitted an invoice for new clothes and shoes for Alexei to Colonel Kobilinsky, the commandant of the palace garrison. He was asking a huge amount so payment was withheld: when the sailer complained to the Tsaritsa and she intervened on his behalf, Kobilinsky showed her the invoice. She took the colonel's part. Derevenko was refused permission to accompany the family to Tobolsk, but months after their departure he was still pleading to be allowed to join them. "

Longer discussion of the issue here.
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Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Royal Retinue Heroes
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2010, 07:47:06 PM »
Certainly Derevenko would not be inculded in a thread of Royal Retinue Heroes !
There's evidence in Charlotte Zeepvat's Romanov Autumn that suggests Vyrubova's story about Derevenko mistreating Aleksei after the revolution was no better than libel:...
Well that's good to know! Thank you for the excerpt.
Quote
.....Kobilinsky showed her the invoice. She took the colonel's part...
lol! An outrageous invoice can do that

"Give my love to all who remember me."

  Olga Nikolaevna