Private rooms of the Winter Palace

[Robert_Hall]

I think you  are right, pers.  I have similiar or same book here.  I should have  looked through it first.  And,  it was the catering kitchens that were located elsewhere.  They also served  the Anichkov Palace as I recall.  For the large  banquets and such.

[PAVLOV]

Antonin Careme, the famous French Chef, was invited in 1819 by Prince Sergei Volkonsky ( The Head of the Imperial Household) to cook for Alexander l.  Prince Volkonsky was, like most Russian aristocrats at the time, a Francophile, hence the invitation.
Careme does not mention that the kitchens were anywhere else than in the Winter Palace, and that everything in the kitchens was constantly "audited", which he found an insult to his honour.

 He was also invited by the Dowager Empress to Pavlovsk, where he  prepared a dinner for her birthday, and also to the Catherine Palace. Here he saw for the first time a special stove designed to keep the plates warm, and where a "suite" of rooms dedicated to the preparation and service of food  existed, the actual kitchen was very narrow. The kitchens at the Catherine Palace were extensively renovated after the Nazi bombardment.

 Careme's visit to Russia was fairly short, but had a significant influence on Russian Cuisine, and vice versa.
 On his return to France he introduced to Europe the Russian way of serving food, " Service a la Russe" which changed the way we eat to this day.
He also introduced to the west, the Russian tradition of placing flowers on dining room tables, instead of elaborate silver and porcelain dishes containing fruit etc. Probably hothouse flowers from Tsarskoe Selo, one would imagine.

I find it hard to imagine hundreds of waiters rushing through sub zero temperatures in the snow with warming dishes serving dinner to thousands of guests in the Winter Palace. There have to be very large kitchens in the basement of the building, to cater for everyone, including the hundreds of servants. Probably storage space today. I think the concept of separate kitchens, to keep smells and fire at bay, probably only applied to country houses, and places like Tsarskoe Selo where they had the space to do so. The Elagin Palace has a very beautiful kitchen building.

A bit off topic, but I thought quite interesting.

[Robert_Hall]

You could very well be correct, Pavlov. The truth probably lies in  both our views.  I just remember a guide pointing out a building me, on a canal tour a building behind the palace as the kitchens. He did not elaborate. I also read about these in some book I have, which I have been unable to locate. There were special vans to transfer the food to the  palace, which was  not far in any case. Remember, the WP   did burn down at least once that I recall.    There also was a separate laundry building.  And a tailoring  shop.

[Joanna]

And, just why would anyone be interested in Frederick's old rooms?

I am.

First reaction reading this, dismay. Was anyone interested for example in my translations of the AP rooms? Was I alone in being intrigued with the behind the scenes of palace life? I must admit I felt off-kilter, stumbling. Then realization, different interests are okay. I had thought of examples such as Schonbrunn where in my youth the toilet of Emperor Franz Josef was deemed sensitive and closed off but today is of major interest. Or of Sisi's Blauer Hof at Laxenburg where I poked around all the rooms. The Yussupov Moika Palace has photos/drawings of Felix' pool bath that is probably like Nicholas II in the Winter Palace or of the toilet room of Zinaida. I want to say of another building that I know intimately (not related to royalty) but this questioning in my mind of my interests has inspired me to pursue publication.

Of the Winter Palace kitchens, this article gives a short description of their locations:
http://kremlin-9.rosvesty.ru/news/48/

В Зимнем дворце (с конца XVIII в.) действовало одновременно несколько кухонь для каждого из живущих в нем членов императорской фамилии. Поскольку в Зимнем дворце постоянно и временно находились тысячи людей, кухни дворца занимали значительные площади в цокольном и первом этажах дворца. Самый большой кухонный комплекс Зимнего дворца – императорский – располагался в помещениях первого и полуподвального этажей, сгруппированных вокруг северо-восточного внутреннего дворика. До сих пор в Эрмитаже бытует старое название этого дворика - Кухонный. В прежние времена его нередко называли также Черным. Сейчас это современное название проезда между Зимним дворцом и Малым Эрмитажем. В подвале кухни хранились продукты, вода, уголь, дрова, там же находились жилые помещения. Названия помещений кухни отражали их функциональное назначение: Пирожная, Мундкохская или Собственная кухня Его Императорского Величества, Супермейстерская, Расходная кухня. Далее вдоль Растрелльевской галереи, под залами Военной галереи героев 1812 года, находились помещения для кухни императрицы Марии Федоровны (жена Павла I). Кухни и их повара переезжали из дворца во дворец вслед за своими хозяевами.

Quick translation as my own is amongst many papers:
In the Winter Palace (the late XVIII century.) Operated a number of kitchens in each of its members living in the imperial family. As the Winter Palace permanently and temporarily were thousands of people, the palace kitchens occupied considerable space in the basement and first floors of the palace. The biggest kitchen complex Winter Palace - Imperial - located on the premises of the first and basement, grouped around the north-east of internal courtyard. Until now in the Hermitage, there is the old name of this patio - Kitchen. In the old days, it is often called the Black Sea. Now is the modern name of travel between the Winter Palace and the Small Hermitage. In the basement, kitchen storage products, water, coal, firewood, there is also accommodation. The names of the kitchen facilities reflect their functionality: cakes, Mundkohskaya or kitchen of His Imperial Majesty, Supermeysterskaya, disposable kitchen. Then along Rastrellevskoy galleries, halls of heroes of the War Gallery of 1812, were the premises for the kitchen of Empress Maria Feodorovna (wife of Paul I). Kitchens and Cooks moved from the palace to the palace after their masters.

Joanna

[Robert_Hall]

Really, Johanna,  I think you are over reacting. Of course we are interested in your translations.  I apologise if I  offended you.  But my point was what is the historical importance of Fredrick's rooms ? Not much, IMO.  He was, after all, just staff. They were more an office than living quarters anyway.  And the IF did not not even use the WP much. As time went on and palace functions changed.  I am sure there was much in the way of changing needs. What may have been useful in the 18Th century   may not have been in the 19Th. And, I as well interested in the behind the scenes  stories, but  some things I simply find irrelevant.
 Thank you for the translations on the kitchens, BTW.  I am familiar with Careme. He was the precursor of the  great Escoffier.
 

[Douglas]

In the Winter Palace (the late XVIII century.) Operated a number of kitchens in each of its members living in the imperial family. As the Winter Palace permanently and temporarily were thousands of people, the palace kitchens occupied considerable space in the basement and first floors of the palace. The biggest kitchen complex Winter Palace - Imperial - located on the premises of the first and basement, grouped around the north-east of internal courtyard. Until now in the Hermitage, there is the old name of this patio - Kitchen. In the old days, it is often called the Black Sea. Now is the modern name of travel between the Winter Palace and the Small Hermitage. In the basement, kitchen storage products, water, coal, firewood, there is also accommodation. The names of the kitchen facilities reflect their functionality: cakes, Mundkohskaya or kitchen of His Imperial Majesty, Supermeysterskaya, disposable kitchen. Then along Rastrellevskoy galleries, halls of heroes of the War Gallery of 1812, were the premises for the kitchen of Empress Maria Feodorovna (wife of Paul I). Kitchens and Cooks moved from the palace to the palace after their masters.

[PAVLOV]

With everyone it seems having their own kitchens, and no ventilation in winter to speak of, the smell of cooking must have been something else. Perhaps thats were the " bad smell"  in the Palace came from. It must have been overpowering.

The laundry went to the Anitchkov Robert , that I know for sure. The Imperial laundries were there. Even the laundry from Tsarskoe went there, apparently..

Anyway now we know where the kitchens were / are, who did a bit of the cooking, and who did the laundry !! What a relief.

[PAVLOV]

Robert I am aware of the fire, but do you perhaps know where it started, and what part of the palace was destroyed, did it reach the Hermitages ?. Did it start in the private rooms, or one of the kitchens?  Did they ever find out ? How much of the furniture did they manage to save ?

[Robert_Hall]

I agree, Pavlov, the laundry and I think the tailoring shop were at Anichkov, in a  seperate building from the palace itsef. That  place is more of a complex than a single residence.
 As for the last fire, no, I do not know much except it started in the kitchens  during the reign of Nicholas I. I am sure whatever was lost was also quickly replaced.  With the resources at hand, I am sure they had no problem  doing that.

[BobG]

I cannot recall where I learned that the main palace laundry was housed in this building at Fontanka, 4 .  It is possible that the Imperial famillies laundry was taken to the Anichkov palace, but at some point this building was used as the laundry for the Winter Palace.  It is very likely that it served all occupants of the Winter Palace except the Imperial Family.  If anyone has more info about this laundry, I'd love to hear it.
BobG

[Robert_Hall]

I think Greg King mentions it  in The Court of the Last Tsar.  However, it is not in the index so  would have to reread the whole thing to find it.

[Joanna]

Robert, I am sensitive. It can be inhibiting as one feels vulnerable to being judged harshly whether intended or not. With the time factor dealing with different projects, you tend to wonder if it is worth the effort to post. But that is not to say others must edit their responses, it is for me to bypass.

To clarify what I should probably have posted - Rather than using Fredericks name as it is well-known, it may have had more resonance with the deciphering of the floor plans if I had written the State Apartment which was assigned to the Minister of the Court. The rooms were used as living accommodations as the office of the minister was located in the Chancellery building. The suite was used by successive ministers and adds to our understanding of the operation of the Imperial Court assignments through the different reigns. To see interior photographs c1900s would be interesting just as I would be intrigued to see ones of the Reserve Guest Apartments.

Joanna

[Vecchiolarry]

Dear Joanna,

Please don't stop posting, for Heavens sakes;  we learn so much from you, as you have been to so many places and your research does help us all put places and names to the conglomerate of Imperial Palaces and Russia.

Larry

[Cathy]

I think Greg King mentions it  in The Court of the Last Tsar.  However, it is not in the index so  would have to reread the whole thing to find it.

Robert
Page 118 (hardcover) Chapter 'Below Stairs at the Palace'

[Condecontessa]

Joanna, I always look forward to your postings. I appreciate your willingness to share info no matter how trivial it may seem. For a historical place like the Winter
Palace, eerything about it is interesting. I only hope to be able to see it in person one day.