Author Topic: Help with identification the crest?!  (Read 12368 times)

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Offline PeterBB

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Help with identification the crest?!
« on: April 01, 2010, 05:05:02 AM »
Maybe I am in the wrong forum for this here, but I would not know where I should place my question.

Can someone help me with the identification the family crest? I think it's a German or perhaps French royal or ducal crest?

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2010, 07:05:56 AM »
I think you should have posted it in the Imperial Russian Antiques section.
The crown above the arms looks like a Russian or German princely crown, while the one above the monogramm looks more like a generic royal crown.

Princely crown:


BTW those are arms, not a crest.
This is a crest on top of a helmet:



« Last Edit: April 04, 2010, 07:09:44 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline PeterBB

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 01:08:57 PM »
That crown looks exactly the same and now I understand that there is a princely crown. But where can I find the princerly family name that belonged to these creast? I can not make more clear in these pictures than I have!

Offline David Pritchard

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2010, 06:29:44 PM »
I would think that this piece bears a German princely coat of arms rather than Russian arms, because of the lack of the mantle. The hall marks on the back of the spoon would probably give more information.

Offline rekem

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2010, 11:29:31 AM »
hallo,
what I need is a highrez pic of just the arms (like 400dpi, 1024x768 ),
by the way this is not a crest, it is the coat of arms without the crest.

Offline PeterBB

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2010, 01:24:26 PM »
hallo,
what I need is a highrez pic of just the arms (like 400dpi, 1024x768 ),
by the way this is not a crest, it is the coat of arms without the crest.

A bigger picture of the coat of arms or crest!


Offline rekem

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2010, 08:16:19 AM »
The crown clearly is ment o be a princely crown, no dukes, no kings.
The arms consist of 2 different arms (A and B) each reversed/mirrored (A1/A2, B1/B2) making 4 quarters in a wrong order.

The correct quartering would have been A1,B1,B2,A2
This to me is not a usual German coa.
To make sure I went through all the Holy Roman Empire families and thereafter, entitled to that type of crown, showing A or B or a combination of 2 or 4. This includes all the European and Russian princes (Siebmachers Wappenbuch new edition vol. 1-5).
With no match, unfortunately.
So there is a certain possibility of a fake coa.
However I will go into another forum with this.

Offline rekem

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2010, 09:21:50 AM »
here we are, no fake, real princes:
Solms - Falkenstein and Münzenberg - Sonnenwalde - Wildenfels.
http://www.welt-der-wappen.de/Heraldik/Heraldikbil12/solms-123.jpg

Offline PeterBB

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2010, 08:47:11 AM »
here we are, no fake, real princes:
Solms - Falkenstein and Münzenberg - Sonnenwalde - Wildenfels.
http://www.welt-der-wappen.de/Heraldik/Heraldikbil12/solms-123.jpg

Are that possibly to find out of who was the DD monogram? And who was the Solms - Falkenstein and Münzenberg - Sonnenwalde - Wildenfels family?

Offline rekem

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2010, 09:57:10 AM »
These are the names of the lines of the Solms family contributing to the coa.
The closest line is that of Solms-Baruth, Prussian princes,

http://www.burgeninventar.de/specials/504ba.html

Is the monogram on the front side of the same spoon ?
it seems to have a ducal crown and the letters DC.
I can't find someone fitting to that.
The princes' names were mostly Friederich.

Are there any silver marks on it ?
Do you have just this one spoon ?
How did it come to you ?

Offline PeterBB

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2010, 10:27:22 AM »
Dear Rekem,



Is the monogram on the front side of the same spoon ? Yes, this is same spoons and desertforks and soup spoons and a service spoon
it seems to have a ducal crown and the letters DC. The letter is DD
I can't find someone fitting to that.
The princes' names were mostly Friederich.

Are there any silver marks on it ? One group was from the royal court silversmith Johan Christoph Demessieur and the other group was from Jean Baptiste Veyrier (later Odiot?)
Do you have just this one spoon ? No, I have more!
How did it come to you ? Inherited
[/quote]

Offline rekem

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2010, 01:11:50 PM »
see PM

Offline Tony de Gandarillas

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2010, 03:19:57 AM »
Could the dessert service have belonged to Dorothéa Wilhemine Bötticher zu Solms-Laubach, Gräfin von Löwensee (1725-1754)? Or perhaps psse. Dorothée Anne Agnès von Solms-Hohensolms-Lich, born 20 Oct 1883?  If it were either of these noblewomen, it would not work with the time period of Königlicher Hofjuwelier, Johann Christoph Demessieur, master 1822 - 1860.  There aren't many of the family with a names that begin with the letter D.  Is there a letter date along with the maker's mark and silver marks?

Offline rekem

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2010, 08:38:13 AM »
unfortunately not,
1) the two lines mentioned have different arms.
2) Solely the following Solms lines did have the arms of the cutlery:
Solms-Baruth
Solms-Laubach-Sonne(n)walde
Solms-Rödelheim
Solms-Wildenfels
3) their lifetimes do not match
4) for Miss Bötticher -> Gräfin Löwensee (3rd wife of Graf Christian August, unknown personal nobility) this kind of cutlery would certainly not have been made.
5) in earlier times there were a lot Solms girls with a "D" i.e. Dorothea.

additionally I'm not so sure about the monogram.
May be a better photo of several different pieces of the cutlery could help.


Offline Tony de Gandarillas

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Re: Help with identification the crest?!
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2010, 02:55:48 PM »
Peter,


Please follow this website for more information on the Solms family.  http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/solms.html

kind regards,