Author Topic: Who owned the family crest?  (Read 12365 times)

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Offline PeterBB

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Who owned the family crest?
« on: April 05, 2010, 01:16:11 PM »
Following was advised by one here on AF I refer readers to:

I realized that it is a princely crown. But where can I find the princerly family name that belonged to these creast? I can not make more clear in these pictures than I have!


Offline PeterBB

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Re: Who owned the princely crest?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 01:55:41 PM »
w
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 01:57:45 PM by PeterBB »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2010, 06:32:17 PM »

Offline PeterBB

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 10:37:29 AM »
Thank you and I´ll making a trying to find the coat of arms of some Russian family at the homepage you speak about!

Constantinople

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2010, 09:44:07 AM »
the coat of arms looks quite intricate.  My guess from the crown is that it isnt Russian.

Offline PeterBB

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2010, 12:06:09 PM »
I have making a new picture of the coat of arms and hope some can see which family was that!


aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2010, 01:20:03 PM »
Commenting especially on Reply #5, but earlier ones as well on this piece of silver:  I haven't given it much thought, but I do feel that the coat of arms probably IS NOT Russian.  The crown is troubling in that it's not the Russian Imperial Crown, and I don't think that it was MEANT to be.  Closed arches in a crown generally indicate the holder of the arms is some sort of ruling entity, I believe. The quarterings are a bit troublesome to me, in that they ALMOST seem to be mirror images of each other, looking at the rampart lion/leopard repeats. I may be incorrect, but I am seeing this shield as bearing the quaterings/charges of TWO people.  Thus for a union of two people to have such similiar quarterings is interesting, to say the least, IMO.
 We have yet to address the crowned script initials, which are in Latin letters, apparently. THAT crown is more finely detailed, and I seemingly see fleurs-de-lis (?) in a band below the arches.  Of course, the crowned monogram was undoubtedly later added than the arms (or, vice-versa !).  Heraldry is an exceedingly complex "science," and I am certainly no authority.  At the far end of the spectrum of thought:  Are we dealing with a piece/s of silver, that somewhere along its life-span has had spurious arms/adornments added to increase its value?  Just a thought.  IF I had to venture a guess that the arms ARE authentic, then I would go in the "German arena" of heraldry. What is known of this piece's history and are there more similiarly-adorned ones?  To be sure, there should be hallmarks, etc. present to attest to the date of manufacture, quality of the silver, etc.  of the item/s. There appears to be relatively little wear on the engravings, but of course they are protected to some extent by the raised surrounding patten.  Just some points of thought, with no pretense of being definitive.    AP
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 01:39:18 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2010, 02:54:25 PM »
Commenting especially on Reply #5, but earlier ones as well on this piece of silver:  I haven't given it much thought, but I do feel that the coat of arms probably IS NOT Russian.  The crown is troubling in that it's not the Russian Imperial Crown, and I don't think that it was MEANT to be.  Closed arches in a crown generally indicate the holder of the arms is some sort of ruling entity, I believe.

The heraldic crown above the arms, a cap lined with fur and with four (three visible) pearl-studded arches surmounted by a globe with cross quite clearly most resembles the generic Russian and German princely crown or cap (Fürstenhut / Княжеская шапка), which also were used by ancient princely families in the Low Countries. As can be seen from the overviews in heraldic handbooks and elder encyclopædias, there were minor differences between the crowns or caps of serene vs. illustrious princes and sovereign / mediatized / newly created princes in Germany and Austria. But as the images are not very clear, I will not speculate in such detail.
The crown above the monogramm, though, looks like a generic royal crown, which also was used by reigning grand dukes and dukes in Western Europe.

The upper half of the first quartering looks intriguingly similar to the red-golden Bars of Aragon which appear in so many arms in the Western Meditterranean, but could of course very well be from somewhere else. I do agree that the "medieval charges" and absence of typical modern military charges like cannons and such make it less likely Russian.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 03:10:56 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2010, 03:13:36 PM »
Re Reply # 7: Thank you for your observations !  I see that we are close in thought. (Heraldry is such an arcane subject!)  I am STILL interested in the presence of hallmarks that might "herald" (pun intended) the origin of this piece.  Though hallmarks, like engravings, can and are, falsely applied on pieces, I think the markings on this piece would be instructive.  How about it, "PeterBB"?  Kind regards,  AP  
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 03:17:25 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline PeterBB

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2010, 07:09:04 AM »
Yes it is an interesting read accepted by the loading of the APF and I also wonder a lot of them - my problem is that the family married to a noble family lots from all over Europe and I have no overview of these coat of arms. But it is very true to the princely and Grand Dukes / Dukes crown - note the Russian Imperial Crown!
Question is whether it is French or German or Aragon is an open question! That is why I turn to you here at the APF and I do not know right where I would turn to receive further information about this coat of arms! But I can say that silver is from between 1830-1860 and there are two masterpieces, and Veyrier Demessieur - both were the Royal Court Jewellers. Veyrier's shop was taken over by Odiot.

Constantinople

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2010, 12:07:18 PM »
It definitely isnt Russian as the cross at that top of the crown is Latin and not Orthodox.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2010, 12:17:03 PM »
It definitely isnt Russian as the cross at that top of the crown is Latin and not Orthodox.
Try googling Княжеская шапка, princely cap, and you'll see that you're wrong. BTW the cross is not a Latin cross, but a cross pattée, which is a variety of the Greek cross.
BTW not even the Imperial Crown has an Orthodox Cross on top.
I think a few Russian princely caps were without crosses, but they were in the arms of Muslim princes in the Empire.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 12:19:02 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Constantinople

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2010, 12:33:50 PM »
The cross is not that clear in the picture but it definitely looks latin to me.  The cross pattée or maltese cross is what appears on the Russian imperial crown and this crown is not close to that.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2010, 12:50:16 PM »
The cross is not that clear in the picture but it definitely looks latin to me.  The cross pattée or maltese cross is what appears on the Russian imperial crown and this crown is not close to that.
It looks like a badly drawn Greek cross to me. Unless it actually is a crescent on a pin and thus belongs to a Muslim prince.

Constantinople

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Re: Who owned the family crest?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 01:13:54 PM »
well we will have to disagree then