Who owned the family crest?

[Naslednik Norvezhskiy]

well we will have to disagree then

So how would you describe the crosses on the generic German and Russian princely caps then?

A thought:
Since one of the few parallells to other arms that I could were the Cantacuzene arms, which also features bars, which are quite rare in Eastern European heraldry, it struck me that we might be dealing with one of the several Wallachian or Romanian princely families, whose arms unfortunately are poorly documented, I guess, compared to German and Russian princely families.

[aleksandr pavlovich]

Re Reply # 9:  Thank you, "PeterBB," for your reply.  I am curious, since you have presented several diverse items recently.  Are you an antiques dealer, a collector, or both?  Best regards,  AP

[Constantinople]

the german crosses are mainly maltese and the Russian one of the imperial crown is a maltese one but the religious cross is typically orthodox
this cross looks latin to me.  Straight cross bars.

[PeterBB]

I want a serious discussion about this coat of arms, not a guess playing and I am almost one hundred percent certain that you are wrong that it was a Muslim prince and you can now take a look at two copies in Russian prince coat of arm. I am sure-fire that you know the Princes Yusupov family and which you can very well see that they have a cross at the crown, not a Russian cross is! So where have you been mistaken to believe that there is no Latin or Malt Cross Ash in Russian coat of arms!


Coat of arms of the Princes Yusupov


Coat of arms of the Princes Koltsov-Mosal

[Naslednik Norvezhskiy]

the german crosses are mainly maltese and the Russian one of the imperial crown is a maltese one

It's not the Imperial Crown that is the issue, but princely caps.

this cross looks latin to me.  Straight cross bars.

A Greek cross also has straight arms (though of equal length).

I am almost one hundred percent certain that you are wrong that it was a Muslim prince and you can now take a look at two copies in Russian prince coat of arm. I am sure-fire that you know the Princes Yusupov family

I am also quite sure it's a normal cross on a normal prince's crown, but just to clear things up:
The Yussupovs were once Muslims (hence the crescent in their arms), but had converted to Orthodox Christianity a long time ago. Thus it's natural that their arms feature a cap with a cross. The princely cap without cross I mentioned belonged to some Russian subjected princes (on the Crimea or Central Asia) who still were Muslims, as far as I recall.

he quarterings are a bit troublesome to me, in that they ALMOST seem to be mirror images of each other, looking at the rampart lion/leopard repeats. I may be incorrect, but I am seeing this shield as bearing the quaterings/charges of TWO people.  Thus for a union of two people to have such similiar quarterings is interesting, to say the least, IMO.

Agreed. You would expect the quarterings to be:
1, 2
2, 1
and not
1, 2
1, 2 like here.
And the mirroring issue is very odd too.
I would say that points to Eastern Europe, i.e. a complicated coat of arms that was designed from scratch.

[Constantinople]

if  you want educated evaluations take it to Sothebys or Christies.  This is an amateur forum so we enjoy our amateur guesses.

[PeterBB]

Re Reply # 9:  Thank you, "PeterBB," for your reply.  I am curious, since you have presented several diverse items recently.  Are you an antiques dealer, a collector, or both?  Best regards,  AP

I´m not antiques dealer, but I´m owned to a lot of Antiques pieces by inheritanced, some I have received from friends and some I bought at auction.
Now I just cataloging these objects in a correct way, because I called for information and miscellaneous information.

[PeterBB]

if  you want educated evaluations take it to Sothebys or Christies.  This is an amateur forum so we enjoy our amateur guesses.

Do you think that at Christie's or Sotheby aware of the different family coat of arms that were / are found throughout Europe and Russia - so that they can give me an answer?

[PeterBB]

I've looked at several steel princely Russian Grand Dukes and the coat of arms - all of them have the same type of crown that I have shown. So I wondered if there really are talking about a Muslim type of crown. It is my strong doubts about! Lions are also a lot of western europe royal / princely / Duke's coat of arms!

With regard to Yusupov's coat of arms - There Is also a Star of David, a Jewish symbol, and in combining production with Muslim´s crescent? It is perhaps a bit far away?

[Constantinople]

both sothebys and christies have a lot of academic strength,  I dealt with them a lot when i lived in London.  They hae a huge cross ability to analyse most forms of art and antigues and a huge reference library,

[Tony de Gandarillas]

Hello Peter,

I'm not sure this will help or not.  According to Carl-Alexander von Volborth's Heraldry-Customs, Rules and Styles, the shield shape itself is an important clue as to the origin.  It shape of the shield is Hungarian.  In regards to the Furstenhut, it was used by the Princes and Dukes of the Holy Roman Empire.  Best Regards.

[PeterBB]

To Tony de Gandarillas, thanks for the information and know what you might Familien for this? Best regards, Peter