Who Was At Second Burial of Imp. Fam.?

[AGRBear]

No, it was on the morning of the 17th, AGRBear, that Yurovsky dismissed Ermakov's men. During the early morning hours of the 19th, more men arrived on the order of the Cheka or some other Bolshevik higher-ups. These were men from the surrounding factories, ordered to help retrieve the bodies from the mineshaft.

According to Sukhorukov, on the morning of July 19, the following people were present for the retrieval of the corpses from the Ganina Works (Four Brothers) mineshaft and presumably, for the reburial in Pig's Meadow later that same morning:

Yurovsky, Pavlushin, Gorin (from the Cheka), Rodzinsky, a Magyar (i.e. Hungarian), Ermakov, and Feodor Tiagunov (from the Red Army). Additionally, the Lysensky workers: Aleks. Bozhenov, Nikolai Pospelov, Ivan Pospelov, Nikolai Samoilov, Mikhail Veselkov, an Estonian named Kiut, another Estonian named Kil'zin, Dmitri Ponomarev, and Gur'ev. From the Verkhne-Turinsky factory: Petrov, Alek. Ryabkov, his brother, and an acquaintance named Yasha. Finally, according to his account, Lukiianov was present, as was Vladimir Sunegin. (According to Kudrin, the sailor Vaganov was also present, which jibes with Sukhorukov's account that two sailors, Sunegin and one whose name he didn't know [i.e., Vaganov] personally retrieved the bodies from the mineshaft.)

This is 23 men, including Sukhorukov himself; 24 men counting Vaganov.  There may well have been additional men whom Sukhorukov also did not know (he didn't mention the men from the Ipatiev House by name, for example - even if the "Magyar" was Lepa or Verhas, that still leaves two additional men he never added to his total).

And just because Sukhorukov says Pavlushin was present and he may not have been (according to FOTR), this is no reason to discount the ENTIRETY of his testimony (we actually have no way of knowing if Pavlushin was present or not - he was injured on the 17th, as indeed was Yurovsky, but could easily have been back in action by the 19th).  

Elisabeth has given us a great list of who was probably at the second buriel of the Imperial Family and the others in Pig Meadow.

Who were these men?  What happen to them after the buriel?  How many left testimony/letters or stories from which we can find father information?

If there were others, who were they?

AGRBear

[Elisabeth]

AGR Bear, I will have to research this to the best of my ability, which is limited. If anyone has access to primary sources not found in Alekseyev, please come forward!

Sukhorukov does say what happened to some of these men - mainly, if they were killed before 1928, when he wrote the statement. Several of them, according to him, did perish fighting the Whites during the civil war.

[AGRBear]

For some reason we were side tracked and never followed up on this  project.

Since these were the men who were at the buriel of the nine  in the mass grave and the  the second grave dug  Alexei and one of the grand duchesses,  why don't we learn more about them.

Since Yurovsky and Ermkov have their own threads,  let's start with  G. I. Sukhorukov. who testified that  Tsarvich Alexei was still wearing his "sailor shirt"  [p. 465 King and Wilson's  THE FATE OF THE ROMANIVS]  when he was pulled out of the Four Brother's Mine shaft and loaded onto the truck and later  with his sister Anastasia was burned and buried separately from the other nine.

Here is part of his testimony given 3 April 1928 given on pps 142 - 144 in         V. V. Alekseyev's  THE LAST ACT OF A TRAGEDY  and in THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by Greg King and Penny WIlson p. 462:


>>"We decided to burn two corpses on the fire and did so.  For our  sacrificial  alter we got the last heir.  The second body was the youngest daughter Anastasia.  After the corpses were burned, we scattered the ashes, dug a pit in the centre, shoveled in all the unburn remainders, made a fire again on the same spot and finished the work."<<

What else do we know about Gregory Sukhorukov?

AGRBear

[LisaDavidson]

I don't have my sourced notes, but here is what I recall about Gregori I. Sukhorukov.

Sukhorukov was from L'ysva, which is near Perm. He was selected along with about 30 others to be part of the Ural Regional Cheka. From this group, 12 were selected to become what I call "The Second Detail". Of the 12, GIS is the only one to have left a statement. From this, I infer that he must have been in charge of the Second Detail.

We know that Ermakov and his men were drunk at the murders and first burial, stole items, and then went back to their factory and local bar and proceeded to gossip about the whole affair. This in turn created a security leak for the Ekaterinburg Cheka. How to plug the leak and keep the bodies from being found? Bring in another group of reliable men from out of town, men who had neither participated in the killing nor guarded the family.

So Sukhorukov's Detail was composed of such men, most of whom died in the Civil War, and it is likely that they were not as loose lipped as Ermakov's group. In just a couple of days, they cleared out the Four Brothers burial and reburied the bodies in two different graves.

After concluding this operation, Sukhorukov was entrusted with serving as the escort to Princess Elena of Serbia from Ekaterinburg to Perm.

[AGRBear]

Thnak you Lisa.

Does anyone know where he came from or what happen to him?

AGRBear

[LisaDavidson]

Thnak you Lisa.

Does anyone know where he came from or what happen to him?

AGRBear

AGRBear, I told you he came from L'ysva, which is near Perm. I know he was alive as of ten years after.

[AGRBear]

p. 142

>>No. 41
From the memoirs of Cheka man G. I.  Sukhorukov, who took part in disposing of the oryal family's corpses
April 3, 1928

...Having been in Kusvinsky works for several days, we received orders to go to Yekaterinburg to form  [can't read].  From the remainder of our battalion about 35 [men] were selected for the detachment with the Urals regional Cheka, where I was also enlisted.">>

-----

So we've  learn:
 (1) Sukhorukov left memoirs;
 (2) the testmony was  given almost ten years after the event;
(3) he had been at the Kusvinsky works for several days which means 16 to 17 July;
(4) there were 35 men from his battalion attached to the Urals regionak Cheka

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Thnak you Lisa.

Does anyone know where he came from or what happen to him?

AGRBear

AGRBear, I told you he came from L'ysva, which is near Perm. I know he was alive as of ten years after.

Oops,  yes you did tell me this.

Is there any mention anywhere about him having family in L'ysva?

And,   yes,   we know he was alive up to 3 April 1928  which is date given for his "memoirs".

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Sukorukov  memoirs continued.....

>>Several days later, on July 18-19, about 12 men (including me) were selected and told:  "Conrades!  A secret of state importance is entrusted to you.  You must die with it.  If somebody does not justify our confidence, woe to him!! " Lukiyanov [unable to read], Fyodor (if I do not confuse the surname), the Urals regional Cheka Chariman said:  "Today we must go to bury Nicholas Romanov's family.  They have been shot..."  <<

What do we learn:
1) They were not selected until the 18th  and 19th of July
2)  On the 19th they were told that Nicholas II 's family was shot
3)  The person who spoke to them was the Ural's regional Cheka Chairman Feodor Lukoyanov.  Found information about him in King and Wilson's  THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS. 
4) These  men were threaten with death if they told what they knew

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Sukorukov  memoirs continued.....

>>At night we drove to the Verkhllsetsky works in carriages.  I do not remember exactly how many people were there, but I do remember many of them.
1. Yurovsky, the town commissar 2. Our commissar Pavlushin, Gorin and Rodzinsky from the Cheka;  I do not remember the surname of a Magyar in a grey  suit which he later burned sulphuric acid;  Yermakov<< [Emrakov]. >> From the Red Guards were my countrymen Fyodor Tyaginov, who was killed on the Denikin font, Aleks, Bozhenov, Nikolai Vladimirovsky Pospelov, his brother Ivan (They seem to be in Perm now.).. Nikolai Samoilov (He studies to become a Red professor in Moscow.), Mickhail Veselkov (He works at the Sverdlovsk GPU).  All of them were the workers from Lysava.<<

The list continues,  but I'd like to make a note here that the last group of men Lacher mentions were workers from Lysava as was Sukorukov.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

There was a glich and the post was repeated and I eliminated it.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Sukorukov  memoirs continued.....

List continued of the men with Sukorukov:

>>An Estonian Kyut was subsequently a commander of a machine-gun  platoon in my detachment and was taken prisoner by Kolchak along with the machine-gun unit.  Kilzin also  an Estonian, was also commander of a machine-gun unti in my attachement and he was killed serving at Novopainsk in the Okhansky district.  Dmintry Ponomaryov, a Lysva worker and Guryev--both were taken prisioners. Workers from Verkhne-Turinsk were Petrov, Alexk. Ryabkov, Ryabkov's siser is working in the Regional Workers Peasants Inpsection now, it seems.  (Probably she has her husband's surname now.)  Yasha, I forgot his surname.  Ryabkova and I know him.<<

End of this particular list.

"Ponomaryov, a Lysva worker "

AGRBear

[Amanda_Misha]

A question:  so that they buried them separated of his family?
Thanks for the answer
Greetings to all 

[AGRBear]

A question:  so that they buried them separated of his family?
Thanks for the answer
Greetings to all 

I am not sure what you are asking.  Are you asking if Alexei was buried separatedly from his family?  If that is what you are asking, the answer is, "Yes", the guards claim that Alexei was burned then buried Alexei  somewhere near the mass grave  where his father, mother and three sisters plus others were buried in Pig's Meadow not far from Ekaterinburg.

At this time,  many people believe Alexei's  and the fourth sister's grave was found 29 July 2007 about 60-7- km from the mass grave.

 AGRBear

[AGRBear]

So the list of men is:
1. Yurovsky, the town commissar
2. Our commissar Pavlushin, Gorin and
3.Rodzinsky from the Cheka; 
4. Magyar in a grey  suit which he later burned sulphuric acid;
5.  Yermakov<< [Emrakov]. >>
6.From the Red Guards were my countrymen Fyodor Tyaginov, who was killed on the Denikin font,
7.Aleks,
8.Bozhenov,
9.Nikolai Vladimirovsky Pospelov,
10. his brother Ivan (They seem to be in Perm now.)..
11.Nikolai Samoilov (He studies to become a Red professor in Moscow.),
12. Mickhail Veselkov (He works at the Sverdlovsk GPU). 

All of them were the workers from Lysava.
13.An Estonian Kyut was subsequently a commander of a machine-gun  platoon in my detachment and was taken prisoner by Kolchak along with the machine-gun unit.
14.   Kilzin also  an Estonian, was also commander of a machine-gun unti in my attachement and he was killed serving at Novopainsk in the Okhansky district.
15.  Dmintry Ponomaryov, a Lysva worker and
16. Guryev--both were taken prisioners. Workers from Verkhne-Turinsk were
17. Petrov, Alexk. Ryabkov, Ryabkov's siser is working in the Regional Workers Peasants Inpsection now, it seems.  (Probably she has her husband's surname now.) 
18. Yasha, I forgot his surname. 
19. Ryabkova and I know him.