The Missing Bodies

[Nicole123]

I read the killers used Revolers and Rivals to kill the Romanovs.

[AGRBear]

I assume you meant rifles.  And,  no,  they did not use rifles.

Here are  two  Mauser bullets:


7.63
AGRBear

[AGRBear]

http://www.youtube.com/user/SnowyHistory#p/u/3/HonT60qAB0g

In this video, Snowy History, Part 3, we are told that the bullets found in the grave of Alexie and the one GDuchess did not match the bullets found in the mass grave.

The scientists believe the two bullets, one was too damage, may have been from another Browning....

I'm going to have to go back and watch this part of the video again.   I'll be back with some questions.



AGRBear

[AGRBear]

I watched the video again.

It was said in the video that the two bullets [the third was too damaged] found in the second grave did not match any of the bullets collected by White investigators or later in the mass grave.  This means that a "new unknown weapon" with a different caliber was used on the Alexei and his sister buried next to him.  If appears the gun was made about the same time as the other guns which fired the other bullets.  

Another one of those little mysteries I wish we could find the answer.

AGRBear

[azrael7171918]

You have to remember that it took so long and the bastards ran out of bullets that someone may have used a personal weapon.

[AGRBear]

You have to remember that it took so long and the bastards ran out of bullets that someone may have used a personal weapon.

The guns used for the execution of the Royal Family were handed out by Yurovsky to his "shooters" as they gathered in the early morning hours just before the Royal Family came down to the basement room.    No rifles.    

From that night to this day, the guns are listed on record.  Two of the revolvers, ones used by Yurovsky and Ermakov are in museums.

What we do know: The gun/guns used on Alexei and the GDuchess found in July of 2007 were not executed by any of the guns listed on record.  Nor were any bullets that matched found in the mass grave or by the Whites in 1918.

Let us say that one of the guards did have his own revolver.  This would mean the shooter did not use it on anyone else.  AND, it would mean that no other shooter shot these two either on purpose or accidently nor was there a stray bullet or two which struck either of these two:  Alexei or the GDuchess.

According to the testimonies,  the shooters were each assigned a royal or servant to shoot.    At the moment I don't recall who was assigned to Alexei,  Marie and /or Anatasia.   While I go and find that information,  does anyone have a thought?

Here are the three bullets:



They were shown on the video on utube.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

author=Greg King: >>The shooters were: Yurovsky; Kudrin; Nikulin; Ermakov; Medvedev; Soames; Netrebin; the two Kabanov brothers; and Lacher.  Of them, Yurovsky, Kudrin, Nikulin, Ermakov, Medvedev, and Netrebin were all ethnic Great Russians; Soames and the two Kabanovs were Balts; Lacher was an Austrian, and the only foreign shooter<<

On another thread Greg King was kind enough to answer one of my questions which was about the list of shooters on the night of 16/17 July  1918 in the Ipatiev House.  I had presented the following list from Edvard Radzinsky's book, The Last Tsar, p. 341-2.  And so I had written:
"The shooters were and who was listed as their target:
1. Commandant Yakov Yurovsky - Tsaritsa
2. Peter Ermakov - Tsar
3. Nikulin - Alexei & Marie
4. Mikhail Medvedev (Kudrin) - Tsar's daughter [not named]
5. Pavel Medvedev - daughter  [not named]
6-11. Latvians from the CHEKA - finished off the others "

... [ in part]...

Nikulin was given the order to shoot Alexei and Marie,  whom the Russians believe was the sister buried next to Alexei and found July 2007.

AGRBear

[Kalafrana]

Speaking in very general terms, it would not be surprising for one or more of the guards to have had his own revolver, as they were carried quite routinely by many men in Europe at that time.

My great-grandfather, a brewery manager in Liverpool, had a revolver which he left to his eldest son in his will. In Britain, controls on firearms were only introduced in 1920.

We should also bear in mind that at the end of a war and its immediate aftermath, there would have been lots of military weapons around, both those issued to Russian soldiers and not returned on demobilisation (I imagine demobilisation in Russia was pretty chaotic!), and acquired from captured Germans etc.

Ann

[AGRBear]

Speaking in very general terms, it would not be surprising for one or more of the guards to have had his own revolver, as they were carried quite routinely by many men in Europe at that time.

My great-grandfather, a brewery manager in Liverpool, had a revolver which he left to his eldest son in his will. In Britain, controls on firearms were only introduced in 1920.

We should also bear in mind that at the end of a war and its immediate aftermath, there would have been lots of military weapons around, both those issued to Russian soldiers and not returned on demobilisation (I imagine demobilisation in Russia was pretty chaotic!), and acquired from captured Germans etc.

Ann

It's possible,  as I've said, that someone had his own gun.   

I'm not sure what the CHEKA and / or Yurovsky's rules were upon the guards about carrying their own guns while on the grounds of the Ipatiev House.  Anyone know?

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Book Two: THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS  by King and Wilson:

p. 302:
>>A collecion of pistols remained on the desk in Yurovsky's office.  Yurovsky was armed with his own Mauser, and a second gun, a Colt; Kudrin, too, had a Colt, as well as a Browning; Nikulin took the other Browning;  Paul Medvedev and four of the other men took the Russian Nagants, while the sixth man took the Smith & Wesson.  Ermakov had a Mauser, along with a Nagant.  Dangerously weighted down with four revolvers, Ermakov's belt sagged, the sight, as Kudrin recalled, so absurd that "we all had to smile at his armed appearance."<<

Ermakov had four revolvers. The models are not mentioned.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Because the thread is locked I couldn't just bring the post forward so I copied it.

Title of thread: How did NAOTMA die?
#45

Bob_the_builder
Guest
   
Re: How did NAOTMAA die?
I tend to believe the chapter in "The Fate of the Romanovs" was the most accurate.

Nicholas was shot in the head by almost all the assassins as it was he who they came to kill that night.
Alexandra was next. The bullet... brain....
Dr. Botkin was shot in the leg and later tried to stand, but was shot in the head.
Alexei was first shot from the chair. When they discovered he was alive, Ermakov tried to stab him with bayonets but they couldn't penetrate the jewels. Yurovsky had to shoot him in the head.
The cook was shot in the head and just "sat down and died".
Olga and Tatiana were grasping at each other. Tatiana was shot in the head. Ermakov kicked Olga and shot her below her jaw and the bullet exited out the top of her head.
Marie went for the door and was shot in the thigh. She was later shot in the head as was Anastasia. These two apperently were not finished off quickly, because later as the bodies were being taken from the cellar, they both awoke and screamed! Because they could be no more shooting and the bayonets would not pierce their bodices, they were both clubbed in the face.

(1) Alexei was first shot from the chair. When they discovered he was alive, Ermakov tried to stab him with bayonets but they couldn't penetrate the jewels. Yurovsky had to shoot him in the head.

(2) and (3) Marie went for the door and was shot in the thigh. She was later shot in the head as was Anastasia

[AGRBear]

Chart of the bullet holes found in the bones from Kleir and Mingay's THE QUEST FOR ANASTASIA.

 

1. Anna S. Demidova
2. Dr. Botkin
3. GD Olga
4.  Nicholas II
5. GD Marie/Anastasia
6. GD Tatiana
7. Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexsi Trupp

For some reason Alexandra skeleton is missing from this particular chart. According to THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS  p. 308  "..bullet slamed into the left side of her,"  [Alexandra's],  "skull"

This chart tells us that there were no bullet holes in the chests of anyone accept Nicholas II.

The diagram on Botkin #2 shows on the lower figure two bullets in the stomach area but the upper one doesn't???  Maples clearfies this by saying, >>...Body No. 2...one bullet in the pelvic area and one from a vertebra... Dr. Sergei Botkin...<< DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES p. 254

AGRBear

#Five was shot in the thigh.

[AGRBear]

>>Nikulin took the other Browning<<

Yurovsky had a Mauser and a Colt.

If Nikulin fired at Alexei with his Browning,  he did not mortally wound him.    Yurovsky is said to have then been the one who ended Alexei's life with his  Colt.   Two shots.  No  Colt or Mauser bullets were found in the graves of Alexei and his sister's in July of 2007

We do not know in which grave, Alexei's or the GDuchess's, the three bullets were found.

The third is not from a Mauser or a Colt.  The scientists couldn't match it to the other two bullets because it was far too damaged but more than likely it was from a Browning. [I'll have to watch the video again to make sure I'm remembering this part correctly.]  So where are Yurovsky's  two bullets from his  Colt that ended Alexei's life?

If Nikulin fired at Marie then it was his bullet from his Browning that entered her thigh.  If this is true, then he also fired and hit Alexei, but did not kill him.

Out of 30 some bullets found in the Ipatiev House and the mass grave,  these are the only three found that are different out of all of the bullets found.

To add to this:  If indeed it was Nikulin who fired the three bullets durning the execution and found in the graves in July of 2007, then that is all he fired.  

It is not uncommon for a man to not want to kill when it finally comes to the moment he's been ordered to fire.   And,  he was aiming at a young man and a young woman just a few yards from him.


AGRBear

[AGRBear]

According to King and Wilson,  p. 307,  Kudin opened fire about the same time Yurovsky did.  Both fired at Nicholas II.

So, this eliminates Kudrin's Browning.  

So,  we're back to Ermarkov.  Two of his four guns were a Mauser and a Nagnant.

King and Wilson wrote on p. 302:

>>Ermakov had come with two Russian Nagants.  Yurovsky handed him a Mauser and a Nagant[/red].+  Dangerously weighted down with four revolvers, Ermakov's belt saged, the sight, as Kudin recalled, so absurd that  "we all had to smile at his armed appearance." <<

So, if the bullets didn't come from the Brownings of Kudin and Nuklin, and, Ermakov did not have a Browning,  then who did?

AGRBear

+ A line I somehow missed when I was typing out this section in my earlier quote.  

[AGRBear]

There is terrible bullets hole on Ipatiev hole, which killed Alexei .Here's :

There is 2 pic., on first is terrible bullets hole, on second is Alexei's last diary, found at Letemin...
Post please all your pictures from Sokolov report...I will post some more later...Or, you can post rare Ipatiev pictures....  

While these look ominous, in truth, because of the way the murders were covered up, we cannot say for certain which bullets killed which victim. This is where Sokolov jumped the shark.

Here are eleven bullets found by the Whites in 1918.


AGRBear