The Missing Bodies

[Forum Admin]

This is a very long thread, and I will read through it, because it is interesting--scary, but interesting.

I am confused.  My dad was taught Russian by America.  He had to take a class in White Russian History.  I do not have him around to ask.

Is this how it happened?

A Czech Army sacked the Russian Treasury.  This Chech Army was approaching Ekaterinburg, when some sergeant panicked, and executed the Czar and his whole family, Against Orders!

Lennon had this enlisted man, and his most immediate officer summarily executed for Murdering the Czar.

The Chech Army took a railroad, went to Russia's East Coast, rendevouzed with Gen. Blackjack Persing, and all escaped to America.

Does any of this sound right, or close to right?  Chiefly, a rebel army was marching on Ekaterinburg, and the executor of the Czar was himself executed for the murder of the Czar?  Very interesting topic.

Is it possible these two missing bodies ended up in America or Chechylslovakia?  America had very close relations with the Czar (the Czar was the first to recognize the declaration of independence, the Czar sent a fleet to New York during the American Civil War, etc.)

Welcome to posting. None if this is right, much less sounds right.
The Czech army never reached Moscow nor "sacked the treasury".
The White Army, with Czech support was approaching Ekaterinburg, however nobody "panicked". Quite the opposite. Numerous meetings were held.
The Ural Soviet contacted Moscow, Lenin gave the order to kill the Emperor. Yakov Yurovsky was tasked with the murders and took great pains to prepare and ensure nobody saw the deed.
Nobody was "blamed" for the murder, in fact Yurovsky was recognized for his "heroism" by the Soviet government. Nobody was "executed" punishment.
The Czech army never went to the East. Now some of the White Army did and escaped from the east.
General Pershing was on the Western front. He had nothing to do with the East of Russia.
While the US had a close relationship with Imperial Russia, the United States was one of the first nations to recognize the Kerensky Government after the Abdication of the Emperor and fall of the Imperial Government.

All of this is explained in great detail here in the Forum. I suggest you spend some time reading and learning, which is of course why the Forum exists.

Rob
FA

[Robert_Hall]

Also,  Russia did not send ships to NYC,let alone the USA. It DID send ships to the Atlantic to protect it's trade ships from the threat of intervention from France & Britain, that is, being caught in the crossfire. Most Russian trade was  with the West Coast, anyway.  There was no Russian involvement in the US Civil War.

[Forum Admin]

Also, Empress Catherine the Great was not the first to recognize the United States and the Declaration of Independence. It was the King of France, Louis XVI. The United States did not send an Ambassador to be Received by the Emperor of Russia until 1809, when John Quincy Adams served there.

[capttrips]

John Quincy Adams had a Sister who married C.L. Kuhn.  They had a daughter named Amelie.

I will find the New York Times article, and Harper's Ferry, etc.  Russia sent a Fleet to New York Harbour to stop the French from running our blockades around 1863.

Did Pershing broker peace between Russia and Japan in 1906?  Maybe that is why I think the Chezchs went east?  I guess they went west, to Pershing.

I know you guys don't buy this "White History" crap, but I'm not just making it up--The US Army teaches it to her Russian Spies.

[Forum Admin]

Somehow I'm not surprised that this totally incorrect "crap" is being taught by the Army. It goes a long way to explaining why we are still in this war almost a decade later...

[Robert_Hall]

So true, FA. I would not consider the US Army a reliable source of history, what with their indoctrination propaganda. [or any army, for that matter]

[capttrips]

Somehow I'm not surprised that this totally incorrect "crap" is being taught by the Army. It goes a long way to explaining why we are still in this war almost a decade later...

What an extremely sharp, clear, poigniant and well placed sentence.  I did not know we were still at war a decade later.  I thought Russia just geniuenly distrusted America, because we helped the Chezch Legion?  I guess there is much more to it than that--off topic sorry.

[TimM]

I think he was referring to the Iraq War, or, as I call it, Bush's Blunder.

[capttrips]

The name of the man who taught this is Protopapov.  His father was in the first or second immigration, through Turkey to Paris with General Denekin after the fall of the Southern White Army.  The US Amry teaches, Had the Brittish and French Armies intervened more violently after their invasion of Archangelsk in 1918-1919? they would have defeated the Red Army.

The Government Printig Office makes these text books available to the public, were you interested.

[billmcl2]

This is fascinating! Kudos to all of the posters for the detailed research, intelligent discussion, and (mostly) respectful disagreements. Some observations:

1.   I didn’t see any mention of the Frozentears.org website and would highly recommend it to anyone unfamiliar with it. This site has links to a number of Romanov documentaries published before the second grave was discovered and is an invaluable source for rare photos, film, interviews, and discussion. Mystery Of The Romanovs (2007) and Mystery Of The Last Tsar (1999) are particularly excellent. Some of the best visuals can be found in the Russian language videos.

2.   Another highly recommended resource is the 2008 National Geographic special Finding Anastasia. The DVD is available for purchase in the US and Canada and has also been posted on YouTube under the title Mystery Of The Romanovs, for some reason. (SnowyHistory is the alias of the poster).

3.   Alexa asked about experiments with burning bodies. In Finding Anastasia, forensic anthropologist Anthony Falsetti attempts to burn part of a pig carcass on an open fire and concludes that it would be impossible to destroy a human body this way in the time that Yurovsky had. Falsetti also demonstrates that jewel-filled clothing could stop or deflect bullets.

4.   There is a photograph of Ermakov posing beside the railway ties covering the mass grave but I don’t know exactly when it was taken.

I was disappointed in the closure of the thread: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed. I think the insistence of some Russian scientists that Maria’s bones were missing from the mass grave is extremely interesting, given the overwhelming forensic evidence that it was the younger Anastasia who was missing.

Would it be appropriate to continue discussion of this topic in this thread, and is there any interest in doing so?

[AGRBear]

The name of the man who taught this is Protopapov.  His father was in the first or second immigration, through Turkey to Paris with General Denekin after the fall of the Southern White Army.  The US Amry teaches, Had the Brittish and French Armies intervened more violently after their invasion of Archangelsk in 1918-1919? they would have defeated the Red Army.

The Government Printig Office makes these text books available to the public, were you interested.

The old timers seem to contradict much of the modern versions of what occurred in Russia between 1918 and 1919.  I started a thread under >>Russian History / The Russian Revolution / Americans Fought Bolsheviks in Russia<<.   It may have more information in the the movements of our army that might interest you.

Here is one of my posts:

Everyone is giving us a great start.  Thanks.

Here is a map showing areas around Archangle where the Allies [British, American, Canadian, Italian, Serb and Finnish troops] were in 1918-1919:



Petrozavodsk was a little more than 100 milies from Petrograd [St. Persburg] on the north side and the furthest advance of anti-Bolshevik troops by Oct. 1919 on the south south west was about 25 miles....

AGRBear

[billmcl2]

Here is a map showing areas around Archangle where the Allies [British, American, Canadian, Italian, Serb and Finnish troops] were in 1918-1919:

Have you ever come across any support for the theory that a "safe house" was established in Murmansk for the IF from which they could have been safely evacuated on British warship?

If I remember rightly, someone found documents in the Hudson Bay Company archives that recorded the purchase of this house but did not clarify why the house had been purchased.

[AGRBear]

There has been a great of controversy about the house built in Murmansk.  A number of people are mentioned connected the construction.   Even Sidney Reilly, the Russian born Jew who was serving the British gov. as one of their spies, is somehow linked.    I believe the construction was funded through the Hudson  Bay Co..   It may have served as a "safe house" for a few families.... According to some communist historians,  the Bosheviks were aware of this place....   Before the bodies of the Tsar and his family were discovered,  some believed it was used by Tsar and family  while on his way to a ship that took him away from from Russia in Aug of 1918....

AGRBear

[stepan]

Here is a map showing areas around Archangle where the Allies [British, American, Canadian, Italian, Serb and Finnish troops] were in 1918-1919:

Have you ever come across any support for the theory that a "safe house" was established in Murmansk for the IF from which they could have been safely evacuated on British warship?

If I remember rightly, someone found documents in the Hudson Bay Company archives that recorded the purchase of this house but did not clarify why the house had been purchased.

I remember that Shay McNeal  wrote a lot about this safe house in her book  "The plots to rescue the Tsar"

[LondonGirl]

I understand from something I have read about this, that the recent discovery of remains claimed to be the 'missing pair' were something like 45 miles from the main mass grave site - why on earth such a distance???