Author Topic: The Missing Bodies  (Read 140854 times)

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Offline fschrader

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #300 on: September 12, 2005, 03:19:23 PM »
I also don't think it helps if we stray TOO FAR from eyewitness testimony.  I think it's fascinating to examine all these many theories as "what if's" but I still don't think it's realistic to posit that an execution didn't take place or took place piecemeal.  And as someone mentioned above, the amount of Bolshevik bullets in the wall of the basement of Ipatiev house means nothing--why?--because so many bullets went into people.  Having studied Soviet history and visitied Soviet Russia and the Russian Federation, I always think it's a mistake to underestimate the Bolsheviks.  No, the men who took part in that night and the witnesses as well might not have been the finest example of Red military, bureaucracy and even marksmanship, but they knew what they were doing, and except for a few surprises, they completed a job successfully that was in the planning for many months.  Please also remember, the Whites were not royalists.  Most of them were looking to restore the Provisional government NOT rescue the Romanovs.  Knowing that, puts a whole different light on what was happening in Ekaterinburg.
Frederick Schrader

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #301 on: September 14, 2005, 03:10:05 PM »
Quote
I also don't think it helps if we stray TOO FAR from eyewitness testimony.  I think it's fascinating to examine all these many theories as "what if's" but I still don't think it's realistic to posit that an execution didn't take place or took place piecemeal.  And as someone mentioned above, the amount of Bolshevik bullets in the wall of the basement of Ipatiev house means nothing--why?--because so many bullets went into people.  Having studied Soviet history and visitied Soviet Russia and the Russian Federation, I always think it's a mistake to underestimate the Bolsheviks.  No, the men who took part in that night and the witnesses as well might not have been the finest example of Red military, bureaucracy and even marksmanship, but they knew what they were doing, and except for a few surprises, they completed a job successfully that was in the planning for many months.  Please also remember, the Whites were not royalists.  Most of them were looking to restore the Provisional government NOT rescue the Romanovs.  Knowing that, puts a whole different light on what was happening in Ekaterinburg.



Since I was not in Ekaterinburg after the events of 16/17 July 1918,  all I and others have are testimonies by and from people who were there.

Some of the early investigators claim they thought the execution was staged.  AND, they were there looking at the very spot the CHEKA claimed was the murder room.

So, how is it that you think that my speculation is unrealistic?

Is it because you've read so much information that tells us otherwise? I assume most of you answered, " Yes.".   Now, ask yourself: What is missing in most of these books, articles, etc. which tell you that an execution and that all eleven were executed on the night of 16/17 July 1918? The testimonies of the early investigators  I have mention in my speculatiions that one or all might have been rescued.  How many books or articles talk about the various people who were ploting to rescue the eleven and  living in and near Ekaterinburg who might well have rescued one or all eleven on that night? Not many.  Why?  I don't know why? Is it because of the lLack of interest due to lack of information?  

Am I being realistic in my quest for the truth? I am being a realist  because I understand the the real character of  CHEKA and the Bolseviks  and know full well what they were capable of doing and to what extent they went through to cover up a secret like a rescue from that day to this.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Lyss

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #302 on: September 15, 2005, 04:50:44 AM »
It's because some things we don't want to believe, especialy when we have identified ourselves with the victims or the event has been extremely cruel.

I had the same thing when reading Loung Ung's 'First they killed my father'. I just couldn't believe, but after seeing the sculls and hearing people's testimonies, you just have to believe it.
Maybe because we live our lives sheltered in peacefull societies where the most cruelties are only shown on tv or in books.
Or maybe we still believe inthe myth of 'good things happen to good people'?
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #303 on: September 15, 2005, 02:45:40 PM »
I have not gained some kind of personal attachement to the IF but I do have an  interested in historical facts and I'd like to be able to see ALL the evidence, including the reports written by the earlier investigators who thought the execution was staged.  Why?  Because they were there.  Because they saw everything as it was and no one had to hand them a book to discover the size of the room or what kind of wall paper there was which we know as the basement room where the eleven were said to have been executed.  Because I want to know why Sokolov, the investigator whom every quotes,  left out a lot of important evidence.  I'd like to know who planted the body of the dog Joy in the Four Brother's Mine.  I'd like to know more about the  four bodies which were found near the Four Brother's Mine by the Whites in those first hours of investigation  and why this information was eliminated by Sokolov from his notes.  I'd like to know why Yurovsky insists that the two bodies were burned and buried "near" the mass grave in Pig's meadow....  I'd like to know why no one can find the two missing bodies....

To me, this is  historical mystery and it interests me, perhaps, that is why I can step back and see all the different angels without the passion and the emotion so many posters have who have become personally attached.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Grand Duchess Marishka

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #304 on: October 04, 2005, 12:53:03 PM »
 ;)Hey all,
I probably should  have read the full thread before posting, but here I go.
The missing bodies...They were burned. According to a Russian named Sokolov, he accounted for pieces of congealed fat and ashes in a place where a fire had burned not too long ago. This was around late 1917? I believe that is the date.
Sokolov took these remains to King George who would not accept them. Thus afterward, he gave the box of the remains to a Russian church. I've forgotten the name.
The rest of the bodies were in the grave, obviously mangled. Only, scientist research seems to give sufficient evidence that Marie was the one who was burned and Anastasia was in the grave. Kind of destroys the whole Anastasia mystery, doesn't it?
Hope I've been of some help.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #305 on: October 04, 2005, 03:07:01 PM »
Quote
;)Hey all,
I probably should  have read the full thread before posting, but here I go.
The missing bodies...They were burned. According to a Russian named Sokolov, he accounted for pieces of congealed fat and ashes in a place where a fire had burned not too long ago. This was around late 1917? I believe that is the date.
Sokolov took these remains to King George who would not accept them. Thus afterward, he gave the box of the remains to a Russian church. I've forgotten the name.
The rest of the bodies were in the grave, obviously mangled. Only, scientist research seems to give sufficient evidence that Marie was the one who was burned and Anastasia was in the grave. Kind of destroys the whole Anastasia mystery, doesn't it?
Hope I've been of some help.


You are new. Welcome to the Forum. Perhaps as you say you should have read the earlier parts of this topic, but I don't blame you for not reading every post. I will, however, respond to your post.

Many of us are aware of Yurovsky's contention that he burned 2 bodies. However, for scientific reasons, it was not possible to completely burn 2 corpses. This is discussed in some detail in the many books that have been written about this case. You may find these interesting.

Nikolai Sokolov's investigation took place in 1918/19. In 1917, the Tsar was in power for part of the year, then imprisoned at the Alexander Palace, and finally sent to internal exile in Tobolsk. Thus, Sokolov's investigation could not have taken place in 1917, because the murders have been fairly well proven to have taken place on July 16/17, 1918.

Offline Grand Duchess Marishka

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #306 on: October 05, 2005, 08:12:07 AM »
Quote

You are new. Welcome to the Forum. Perhaps as you say you should have read the earlier parts of this topic, but I don't blame you for not reading every post. I will, however, respond to your post.

Many of us are aware of Yurovsky's contention that he burned 2 bodies. However, for scientific reasons, it was not possible to completely burn 2 corpses. This is discussed in some detail in the many books that have been written about this case. You may find these interesting.

Nikolai Sokolov's investigation took place in 1918/19. In 1917, the Tsar was in power for part of the year, then imprisoned at the Alexander Palace, and finally sent to internal exile in Tobolsk. Thus, Sokolov's investigation could not have taken place in 1917, because the murders have been fairly well proven to have taken place on July 16/17, 1918.


My dear, let inform you that I have read and viewed almost every video and book available to my state and country about them. I have read the private reports and everything. Honestly, if you live your life by science,
you are not living life at all.
Oh and my apologies. I do know this. I mixed up the dates, I have a tendency to do so since they're of the same number. All in all, you don't have to explain it to me, I know what happened.
And let me finish with this: The both of them, either Marie or Anastasia AND Alexei died with their family.

Peace out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by granduchessmariska »

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #307 on: October 05, 2005, 12:38:30 PM »
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My dear, let inform you that I have read and viewed almost every video and book available to my state and country about them. I have read the private reports and everything. Honestly, if you live your life by science,
you are not living life at all.
Oh and my apologies. I do know this. I mixed up the dates, I have a tendency to do so since they're of the same number. All in all, you don't have to explain it to me, I know what happened.
And let me finish with this: The both of them, either Marie or Anastasia AND Alexei died with their family.

Peace out.


Hi Grand Duchess: I hope you understand that people from all over the world post on this board with all different levels of knowledge about the family. What I did not realize from your post is what your level of knowledge is.

While I do understand what you are saying philosophically about science, it was simply not possible to burn those two bodies. However, I happen to agree with you that the family all died together.

Offline Grand Duchess Marishka

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #308 on: October 05, 2005, 05:56:59 PM »
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Hi Grand Duchess: I hope you understand that people from all over the world post on this board with all different levels of knowledge about the family. What I did not realize from your post is what your level of knowledge is.

While I do understand what you are saying philosophically about science, it was simply not possible to burn those two bodies. However, I happen to agree with you that the family all died together.


I dunno, it's what's been given, and I believe the established book facts. But nevertheless, I suppose that was to back me up, and I greatly approve of it.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #309 on: October 19, 2005, 06:42:45 PM »
We do not know if the two missing were killed on the night of 16/ 17 July 1918.

Yes,  Yurovsky and others did say all were executed.  

This may be a lie.

Why do I think Yurovsky could have lied?  When he  told us where the two people were burned and their remains were buried,   he named the wrong female.  And,  the two bodies are not where he said they'd be found.  Why tell the truth about one grave and not about the other?  Unless,  he had something to hide. Or in this case,  what was it that Yurovsky didn't have to hide?   Two missing children of Nicholas II.

All we know at this time is:  two bodies are missing from the mass grave found in Pig's Meadow

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline etonexile

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #310 on: October 20, 2005, 07:15:28 PM »
It is just so annoying when mass murders and the after-math don't run smoothly...This wouldn't have happened in England....

Offline Grand Duchess Marishka

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #311 on: October 21, 2005, 10:30:05 AM »
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We do not know if the two missing were killed on the night of 16/ 17 July 1918.

Yes,  Yurovsky and others did say all were executed.  

This may be a lie.

 Why do I think Yurovsky could have lied?  When he  told us where the two people were burned and their remains were buried,   he named the wrong female.  And,  the two bodies are not where he said they'd be found.  Why tell the truth about one grave and not about the other?  Unless,  he had something to hide. Or in this case,  what was it that Yurovsky didn't have to hide?   Two missing children of Nicholas II.

All we know at this time is:  two bodies are missing from the mass grave found in Pig's Meadow

AGRBear



No, no, no. It's quite obvious that there was desperation that night as well as confusion. It was dark, cold, the bodies were disfigured by acid and gasoline- particularly the faces so that the Whites wouldn't know who it was if they found them...Obviously, Yurovsky was in so much of a mixup that he probably named the wrong person without realizing it.
And about the grave, he burned them. No such grave could exist, unless you mean ashes. Which, of course, could have blown away.

Do you not remember Sokolov's report of finding pieces of fat tissue and ashes not long after the murder? I know this is correct- The family, none of them, escaped.

Offline etonexile

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #312 on: October 21, 2005, 10:59:11 AM »
Yurovsky should have cut off all the IF heads and rushed them to Moscow as a gift to Lenin....a missed opportunity....

Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #313 on: October 21, 2005, 06:20:53 PM »
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No, no, no. It's quite obvious that there was desperation that night as well as confusion. It was dark, cold, the bodies were disfigured by acid and gasoline- particularly the faces so that the Whites wouldn't know who it was if they found them...Obviously, Yurovsky was in so much of a mixup that he probably named the wrong person without realizing it.
And about the grave, he burned them. No such grave could exist, unless you mean ashes. Which, of course, could have blown away.

Do you not remember Sokolov's report of finding pieces of fat tissue and ashes not long after the murder? I know this is correct- The family, none of them, escaped.


When the bodies were pulled out of the Four Brothers Mine,  they were not bloated and disfigured.  Quite the opposite.  The frozen water, it was said, kept the bodies in excellent condition.  This was described by one of those present who told another who's testimony was taken. 

The nine bodies which were placed in the mass grave were given a acid bath and their faces were struck with rifle butts....  

Yurovsky, 1920 testimony:
>>We wanted to burn A. [Aleksei] and A.F., but by mistake the lady-in-waiting [he maid Demidova] ws burnt with A. instead.  We then immediately buried the remains under the fire and lit the fire again, which comletely covered up traces of the digging.  Meanwhile, we dug a common grave for the rest. <<

In his 1934 statement:
p. 364-5 FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Steinbuerg and Khrustalev:

>>I have to say that we were all so devilishly exhausted that we didn't want to dig new grave, but, as always happens in these cases, two or three began doing it and then others joined in.  We immediately lit fires, and while the grave was being readied, we burned two corpses:  Aleksei and, apparently, Demidova, instead of Alexandra Fyodorovna, as we had intended.  We dug a pit by the spot where they were burned, piled in the bones, evened it over, lit another big fire, and covered all traces with ashes.  Before putting the rest of the corpses in the pit....<<

If the two bodies, Alexei and Anastasia or Maria were burned,   the temperature needed for cremation could  not have been achieved the forensic people tell us.  If they were burned,   I've given a detail (a gross description) of this earlier on this thead or another.   The muscles and tendons would have been  intact so the bodies would have been pushed into the grave near the mass grave. No acid was said to have been placed on these two bodies.  There were covered....  No railroad ties are mentioned for this smaller grave.  A fire was built on top of the grave and it was these ashes that were spread.

Yes, there must have been confusion that night for everyone concern.  But how much confusion we don't know.  

What we do know is,  the two bodies have not been found near the mass grave.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline etonexile

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Re: The Missing Bodies
« Reply #314 on: October 22, 2005, 09:50:15 AM »
I've always been in awe of the whole execution,mutilation business...Yes,those were hardened soldiers....but all that gruesome work....gad...